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MSI GTX465 Twin Frozr II Golden Edition Owners Club - Page 390

post #3891 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
I completely get the hardware aspect of it. If it's not a true 470 GPU chip and doesn't have all 10 memory chips, then it can't be flashed to a 470. Same as putting a Ferrari sticker on a Toyota Corolla doesn't make it a race car... LOL

The heart of my question is still hanging. If MSI bins these 470 boards because something specific doesn't meet their specs, how does flashing it to a 465 make it work all the sudden.

I have figured out another way to state part of my question:

It's like having 4x2GB sticks of RAM in your computer, but say Windows only needs 1.5GB to run. What tells Windows what ram to use? Does it use part of the RAM from each stick? Does it max out one stick beore spilling over to using some of the next one?

That's where my "but what if 2 of the 10 memory chips were sub-par" thought came from. If MSI realized what specific hardware was bad, they could somehow lock it down. Then we're unlocking it and using it.

But if it's not a specific piece of the board that's wonky, then how does binning it and making it a 465 all the sudden make it work? If the hardware was too crappy to work as a 470, I guess I'm amazed that it somehow functions well as a 465.

To use a car anology: An engine with a bad piston is going to be a bad engine regardless of it being in a Ferrari or a Toyota.

Makes it seem like the overall output is what MSI was aiming for. If the goal for a Ferrari engine is 400hp, and they make a batch of engines that only make 200hp... and the standard engine for Toyotas is only 200hp... it seems kinda crappy to sell a bad engine under a different name just because it meets some of the specs. A bad engine is still a bad engine.

So it makes me wonder why they would sell a binned 470 as a 465 given that the hardware still has something wrong with it unless they completely isolate and bypass the broken part. And that's where my BIOS theory came in. It seems like they'd have to do something specific to bypass the sub-par part of the card so that it functions 100% as a 465 without a chance of failure.
But haven't you noticed that even after flashing these cards with a GTX 470's BIOS, most of them still need to be tweaked in order to cause them to be completely comfortable as a GTX 470?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
Precisely. There's something on the chip itself that tells it to "lock this out", which would explain how when you re-lock the bad core(s) on the 550 that it goes back to working just fine.

This actually gives more credence to the aforementioned idea that it's a hardware lock of some sort so when it's flashed from a 470 back to a 465 that the card somehow "knows" what portions to lock back down.

I guess it makes me wonder why card #453 that I had... when I locked it back to a 465... it kept showing the artifact problems that it showed when unlocked to a 470. It was like locking it back down didn't keep it from using whatever was sub-par on it.

Sorry for all the long posts. Just something interesting that popped to mind a couple days ago.
It's all dictated by the BIOS. The GTX 465's BIOS is only capable of seeing the GTX 465 part of the card. But the GTX 470's BIOS can see the entire thing. There's no "locking" or "unlocking". It's just determined by the BIOS being used. That's why it's possible to freely flash back and forth between a GTX 465's BIOS and a GTX 470's BIOS.

The GTX 465's BIOS is only capable of using the parts of the card that make it a GTX 465. But the GTX 470's BIOS uses the entire card.

In other words: the GTX 465's BIOS is only capable of taking advantage of like let's say 80% of the stuff on the PCB. But the GTX 470's BIOS can take advantage of every last part on the PCB.

It actually isn't anymore complex than that. It's all software-driven (that is, it's all driven by the BIOS being used). So, it's my guess that any reference GTX 470 can be flashed to a GTX 465 and then back to a GTX 470.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klYMIit View Post
My #1932 is rocking great. TOo bad a bad intel chipset driver install took down my entire internet. Reinstalling as we speak.....the entire win7
Updates on my magnificent card are as follows.
The memory has seemed to be breaking in just fine and sitting at 1925. I wonder if more volts will help? 815 on core seems to be fine@1.087. I have a factory unlocked NCIX card and the thing was running great at 840 or so until it starts getting a lil too hot. I've installed a high speed adjustable antec fan to blow between the card and my x-fi on my micro x58m msi.
In short, I picked up a gtx260 for phsyx at microcenter for 60$ WOWOWOWOOW!!! no x-fi though I'm thinking going Asus for more slots.
Darkest of Days is runnning like a dream, and metro seemed to have smoothed out only subtly. I want to go to 1.2 volts. I also have a evga gtx465 that was a 1.1v max. with no unlocking luck.
Good luck and may the volts be with you.
As far as I know, none of the GTX 465s produced by EVGA are actually just GTX 470's that get shipped with a GTX 465's BIOS (which is what the vast majority of these Golden Edition cards are). In other words, as far as I know, none of the GTX 465s produced by EVGA are "unlockable", so to speak.

Oh and by the way: those NCIX cards aren't unlocked at the factory, but rather they are unlocked by Linus himself (LinusTechTips); he works for NCIX.
Edited by TwoCables - 9/19/10 at 6:51pm
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post #3892 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
In other words: the GTX 465's BIOS is only capable of taking advantage of like let's say 80% of the stuff on the PCB. But the GTX 470's BIOS can take advantage of every last part on the PCB.

It actually isn't anymore complex than that. It's all software-driven (that is, it's all driven by the BIOS being used). So, it's my guess that any reference GTX 470 can be flashed to a GTX 465 and then back to a GTX 470.
This is correct, but you're still missing my point.

If some part of the board didn't function well enough to function to be sold as a 470 and was "binned", how does MSI ensure that that bad part of the board is bypassed when they lock it down to a 465 so that it functions 100% as a 465?

That's part the question I'm asking.

By your theory, they'd have to make a unique BIOS for every single one of the GE cards, and I doubt that's the path they went down.
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post #3893 of 5083
Running some stock speed SLi benchmarks. Doing 1553 (slot 1) and 1416 (slot 2).

I turned off physx this time and ran Vantage. Scored a 26360.



Edited by Rangerscott - 9/19/10 at 7:53pm
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post #3894 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by matttehman View Post
Sure, np.







So they do exist above 2000. That's nice to know.
post #3895 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
This is correct, but you're still missing my point.

If some part of the board didn't function well enough to function to be sold as a 470 and was "binned", how does MSI ensure that that bad part of the board is bypassed when they lock it down to a 465 so that it functions 100% as a 465?

That's part the question I'm asking.

By your theory, they'd have to make a unique BIOS for every single one of the GE cards, and I doubt that's the path they went down.
But if what I said is true, then any GTX 470 can be flashed with a GTX 465's BIOS. Unfortunately, I bet it would be next to impossible to find somebody willing to test this.

But, this card is identical to a reference GTX 470, and so therefore these are just "failed" GTX 470s. There must be some pretty high standards for the GTX 470 since these were binned as GTX 465s and sold as such using a GTX 465's BIOS instead of using a GTX 470's BIOS. After all, it goes like this: they manufacture the card to be a GTX 470, and then they test it. Well, it's my guess that since most of these cards become unstable at temperatures in the 80s, then the standard must say that for a GTX 470 to sold as a GTX 470, it must be able to handle the heat.

But either way: does it really matter?
Edited by TwoCables - 9/19/10 at 11:08pm
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post #3896 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by TwoCables View Post
But either way: does it really matter?
It does.

It explains why some of these cards overclock so well...

... and others are seemingly unstable the minute they become unlocked.
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post #3897 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metonymy View Post
It does.

It explains why some of these cards overclock so well...

... and others are seemingly unstable the minute they become unlocked.
I know what you're saying now. One card has memory chip #5 that is bad, another has memory chip #3 that is bad. Each would need a specific custom BIOS written for it, otherwise, the card would be using bad memory as either a 465 or a 470. Memory being any part that was "bad" enough to make them call it a 465.
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post #3898 of 5083
But even if we figured all this out, then how would it benefit us (and others)?
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post #3899 of 5083
Ok, so. You guys wanna know the dOWNLOW? (dl?)

A gtx465 is a great piece of hardware hands down. 470's can be had, and in fact I'm looking at buying a gigabyte off ebay for 350$ that does 800/4000 but I dunno about volts.
Here's the boiling point: THEY MADE 2500 of them DOES EVERYONE KNOW THAT!!!!
I've also seen 470's w/480 bios doing a good 1000marks better in vantage. HEADS UP. Mine is factory (ncix) unlocked, why not just flash it with a huge 480 bios huh? and with some EXTRA volts?
RIDDLE ME THAT.
post #3900 of 5083
Quote:
Originally Posted by klYMIit View Post
Ok, so. You guys wanna know the dOWNLOW? (dl?)

A gtx465 is a great piece of hardware hands down. 470's can be had, and in fact I'm looking at buying a gigabyte off ebay for 350$ that does 800/4000 but I dunno about volts.
Here's the boiling point: THEY MADE 2500 of them DOES EVERYONE KNOW THAT!!!!
This thread has over 3,900 posts, so there's nothing you can tell us about the MSI Twin Frozr II Golden Edition GTX 465 that we don't already know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by klYMIit View Post
I've also seen 470's w/480 bios doing a good 1000marks better in vantage. HEADS UP. Mine is factory (ncix) unlocked, why not just flash it with a huge 480 bios huh? and with some EXTRA volts?
RIDDLE ME THAT.
Because it won't work with a 480's BIOS. However, there are some BIOSes available that have the same clock speeds as the GTX 480. In other words, when you flash to these edited BIOS files, they turn your card into a GTX 470 that has stock clocks which match a GTX 480.

If this card worked with a GTX 480's BIOS, then that's what we'd be using. I mean, why would we still be using the GTX 470's BIOS after having over 3,900 posts in here? But hey man, if you can get your Golden Edition to work with an actual GTX 480's BIOS, then tell us about it. Show proof too, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazzymoose View Post
[WARNING] incoming Rant/

Okay lets see what we know? or think we know?

First: nVidia was 6 months late to release the fermi's.

Second: eager to widen the GTX 400 line to compete with ATI who at this time had a full line of HD 5000 cards, rushed out the 465's as deactivated 470 cards before the fabrication for the true 465' chips was complete. reviewers noticed this and flashed certain cards with a 470's bios with success.

Third: and well this is just my own perspective. MSI also noticed this, prior to release and with their success marketing mobo's that could unlock hidden AMD cores came up with a marketing scheme. Rounding up all their 470's that were to be sold as 465's (either do to a bad fabrication process or perfectly fine) threw on an all copper cooler and released the "Limited Golden Edition". while still having a regular true 465 Twin Frozr II. In my conversation with the MSI Tech rep he confirmed that if you took off the heatsinks that these cards have different PCB's.

Fourth: the 465's hit the market and some were still 470's. MSI was not the only company with 470/465's that were able to unlock. The early PNY and other companies cards were also able as well. The first PNY's with the Black PCB (i believe) were 470's then when the Blue PCB came out they were not able to unlock anymore: true 465's. forgive if I got the colors mixed up. So this confirms that 470/465 cards were on the market either before the actual 465 chip was finished or just to fill demand.

nVidia's lag did us all a favor lol

I feel that MSI saw a great way to take advantage of this and target the enthusiast crowd. rep+1 for MSI

I agree that any 470 should be able to be flashed to a 465. So If the quote a quote failed 470's have flaws and per say they all had the same flaw this could be written into the bios very easily. all of a certain batch of chips having a very specific factory flaw in the same place/same SP's. easy bios script lock out SP #59-69. if they all have very different flaws, but in the same ballpark to be considered as a 465 say different areas on the chip. then there needs to be a way to scan/seek out those flaws and disable them. so in certain cases maybe an error occurs in this hand off and the right SP's or memory or whatever is not disabled correctly. and thus the card does not quite function as a 465 either. like XiDillon suggests maybe their is more commands to nFlash than we know. perhaps they updated the newest version of nFlash to incorporate this. or it is in the bios themselves and like a bad driver install needs to be done again. who knows and there are only so many 470's that were sold as 465's.
Then why does any GTX 465's BIOS work on our cards?
Edited by TwoCables - 9/20/10 at 3:26am
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