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The importance of the "order" of your loop? - Page 10

post #91 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lost-boi View Post
But then your splitting hairs... It might be 1-2c cooler if that.
In all honesty its not worth trying to place a rad before a component unless it would result in the shortest/cleanest paths.
I'll split hairs for 1-2C. That's a bigger overclock for my CPU and 1-2C less off my brain to worry about overheating.

If you can't make a clean tubing scheme while still putting the rads before the blocks then you aren't being creative enough.
 
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post #92 of 110
Just to make clear. If you want maximum performance you should put all radiators in series just before the CPU block (not put one after each block). This way you get the largest temperature drop (1 - 2 degrees cooling 500-1000 watts of heat with a 2 GPM flow) where it matters the most. CPUs are more critical to good cooling than GPUs and I bet your GPUs won't mind the 0.5 degree increase in water temperature (which is approximately the temperature increase from a 250 watt CPU).

Personally I prefer a clean layout and minimal tubing (for look and ease of draining/filling). If I at the same time will get the above setup it will be great but not critical to me.


I wonder how much cooler each core will run on an I7 overclocked to 4.2 GHz if I drop the water temperature from say 27 degrees to 26 or even 25 degrees? (note to self: Test this when new rig is complete).


/Nordar
Edited by Nordar - 8/27/10 at 11:31am
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post #93 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordar View Post
Just to make clear. If you want maximum performance you should put all radiators in series just before the CPU block (not put one after each block). This way you get the largest temperature drop (1 - 2 degrees cooling 500-1000 watts of heat with a 2 GPM flow) where it matters the most. CPUs are more critical to good cooling than GPUs and I bet your GPUs won't mind the 0.5 degree increase in water temperature (which is approximately the temperature increase from a 250 watt CPU).

Personally I prefer a clean layout and minimal tubing (for look and ease of draining/filling). If I at the same time will get the above setup it will be great but not critical to me.


I wonder how much cooler each core will run on an I7 overclocked to 4.2 GHz if I drop the water temperature from say 27 degrees to 26 or even 25 degrees? (note to self: Test this when new rig is complete).


/Nordar
True... Unless 1 radiator will cool the water close enough to ambient temps that the 2nd radiator has no effect.

In which case you would see a larger benefit by taking that radiator and placing it after the CPU to remove the heat it added. After all it's not doing anything is it? This is the point I have been trying to make almost this whole thread. It all depends on what you are running. There is no sense in placing a radiator in a position in a loop that it will not drop the temps. The more heat going INTO the radiator the better. If you put a radiator after a radiator when the 1st radiator removes more than enough heat then you are limiting the performance of the 2nd radiator and making your loops overall cooling effiency LESS. It's not much since most people overkill on rads and a single rad can likely drop temps enough for their entire loop. You will see this temp drop be close to a split rad setup as it is in a daisy chained setup.

Take a quad radiator. Make a loop with 1 cpu block, the rad, and 3 gpu blocks.

All the cooling gets done right before the CPU. So while the CPU is recieving the coldest water possible (being the most efficient water to cool the CPU with), the GPU's water is consecutively heating up as it passes through each block.

Now take that quad radiator and split it into 4 and introduce a radiator into the loop after each block.

Let's say for ****z n giggle the 4 singles split from the quad cool just as efficiently as the single quad does.

You are now dumping the heat BEFORE it enters each block so instead of the water heating up as it passes through the blocks it stays a steady average across the loop. There are DeltaT calcs and whatnot to consider since as the water gets hotter it cools more quickly as it passes through the radiator. The overall message is it will be slightly more efficient with the split radiator loop. The entry temp of the water will always be lower than in the single quad radiator for each block (except maybe the CPU, depending on the amount of heat dump and the type of fans you have running).
Edited by Shrimpykins - 8/27/10 at 12:49pm
 
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post #94 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucretius View Post
Not interested in winning, as long as the facts are out there people that choose to be reasonable will appreciate it.
Yes your thoughts on the matter really helped me understand it better. So thanks for that
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post #95 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordar View Post
Calculations
What we know:
  • 2 gallons of water passes through the radiator each minute. This corresponds to about 7.5 Liters of water/minute which equals 125ml/second. 125ml of water weights (approximately) 125g. so M = 125g in our formula above
  • 500W needs to be removed by the radiator (since 500W is added by the components we know 500W must be removed as well since we are in equilibrium). We know the amount of heat removed is Q = 500 W * seconds
  • c = (approx) 4 J/(g*C) = 4 Ws/(g*C) , C = celcius, remember 1 Joules = 1 Ws per definition
  • dT = temperature difference we want to compute.

Entering these values into the heat flow equation yields:

500 Ws = 125g * 4 Ws/g*C *dT

==>

500 Ws = 500 Ws/C * dT

==>

dT = 1.0 C


So theoretically there should be a 1 degree difference in temperature between input and output of the radiator. If 1000W of energy is added the difference would be 2C and so forth.


Conclusion:

From the above (and assuming I made no mistakes in my application of the formula) I personally conclude:
  1. There is a difference. However, it is small.
  2. The difference in input/output is not enough for me (even for a big system) to dictate loop order. I would personally prefer tidyness, simplicty and reduced tubing (easier to bleed, fill, drain...).
  3. Also look at what happens if you spread out the radiators (typically 1 before CPU, 1 after CPU) between each block. Then the radiators share the work of removing the heat and the difference in input/output temperature of EACH radiator will be less.
  4. A good question now is: What does a 1C improvement in water temperature do to the CPU tempeature. My guess is very little - a guess that is backed up by the people who says they tried different loop orders without any change in CPU temperature.
  5. If one insists on the importance of loop order the above indicates you should put all radiators in series and place them right in front of the CPU to get biggest temperature drop before the water hits the CPU block.



Gah. this took quite a while to figure out and write. I hope it will be useful reading . This is why water cooling is fun... .


/Nordar
Very nicely done Nordar. +rep for the math.

So if I understand it right, lets say you are cooling cpu, and 3 gpus. You set the 2 rads up in daisy-chain. The water after the rad will only be 1-2c cooler than the water after all 4 components?

And I pose that bolded question above to any of you math geeks, cause god knows, thats not me. What it sounds like is that the heat transfer rate of water isn't affected that much by the temperature of the water. But it would be nice to see some math to back that up.
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post #96 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solmors View Post
Very nicely done Nordar. +rep for the math.

So if I understand it right, lets say you are cooling cpu, and 3 gpus. You set the 2 rads up in daisy-chain. The water after the rad will only be 1-2c cooler than the water after all 4 components?

And I pose that bolded question above to any of you math geeks, cause god knows, thats not me. What it sounds like is that the heat transfer rate of water isn't affected that much by the temperature of the water. But it would be nice to see some math to back that up.
It doesn't affect it much it still affects it though.
 
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post #97 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimpykins View Post
It doesn't affect it much it still affects it though.
Yea, but are we talking 1c of cooling difference? Or more like, .01c? To me, 1c might be worth it if it doesn't take too much extra tubing and effort. But .01c wouldn't be worth any time at all.
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post #98 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solmors View Post
Yea, but are we talking 1c of cooling difference? Or more like, .01c? To me, 1c might be worth it if it doesn't take too much extra tubing and effort. But .01c wouldn't be worth any time at all.
It depends on your loop. You have to gather all the info and run the numbers on your particular setup as it won't be universal.
 
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post #99 of 110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordar View Post
If the presure is the same everywhere in the tubing why is it important to measure it right after the pump?

I will install a flowmeter in my build and hook it up to the auto shut off function of my fan controller so that if the flow goes too low it will turn the computer off immediately. Also I will use it for maintenance monitoring.


/Nordar
It's the most accurate there. PSI is a outward measurement of pressure and can be a variable depending on the viscosity of what it's pumping.

That's why pumps are measured in head and flow. Head is how many feet a pump will pump vertically in a 1" ID tube, once it reaches max it's called the pumps shut off head.

Hey that would make a decent fail-safe, I like that. I used to run double pumps partly for the redundancy. I don't trust software solutions much.
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post #100 of 110
I have read this thread with interest and it convinced me to join the forum. This is my first post, so I thought I would make it a good one.

I would like to add some more science to the question of the importance of loop order (yes, I am alive and doing science). I read Nordar’s sciency post and he did a good job with the formulas, however there is a better equation for the job. So really this is just an extension of his post. I would like to introduce that equation, everyone likes equations right?

The equation is one of my favourites, mostly because it is quite easy, and is called the Steady Flow Energy Equation (SFEE). It basically states that for a steady flow, the energy in to a control volume is equal to the energy out. Here it is in all of its glory:

Q - Wx = m(Δh + (Δc^2)/2 + gΔz)


Where
Q = heat transfer in or out of the system in kW
Wx = work done on or by the system in kW
m = mass flow rate in kg/s
h = enthalpy in kJ/kg
c = speed of the flow in m/s
g = gravitational constant, 9.81m/s2
z = height in m
Δ = a change in the value (out – in)

Scary? Don’t worry; we can make some assumptions to make it nicer:

1.The control volume in this case will be the water block (any water block) from the pipe inlet to the pipe outlet.
2.No work is done, Wx = 0. There is no work done by the fluid, this term is used for pumps, turbines etc.
3.No change in speed, Δc = 0. As the mass flow in and out must be equal and the flow is not compressed, the volumetric flow (m3/s) is the same. For an equal pipe inlet and outlet diameter this leads to equal inlet and outlet speeds.
4.Negligible height change, Δz = 0.
5.Water is the working fluid. I don’t have steam tables (explained later) for various coolants so I am going to make this simple for myself.

This reduces the equation to:

Q = m(Δh)

Much nicer! Incidentally Nordar, you almost derived this. Good work for one who said “I am certainly no expert”.

The Q, or heat load, can be put in easily. I am going to use 200W for no other reason than it is a nice round number. Remember that the equation uses kW, so we have to use 200 / 1000 = 0.2kW.

For the mass flow, I have used 2 GPM (US gallons). Again, no other reason than it is a nice round number. To convert GPM into kg/s we do the following:
2 * 3.79 = 7.58 litre/min
7.58 / 60 = 0.126 litre / s
As 1 litre = 1 kg for water, m = 0.126kg/s

This gives us Δh easily as 0.2 = 0.126 * Δh, so Δh = 0.2 / 0.126 = 1.59 kJ/kg.

This is where things get a little trickier as Δh does not easily give us ΔT. To get ΔT we have to use steam tables. Steam tables are thermodynamic tools that are used to calculate the properties of water at various points. I wont bore you with the details (mostly because I just use an Excel Add-in for most of my work).

Using the inlet conditions of 1.01 Bar (atmospheric pressure) and 30˚C (another round number) gives a temperature rise of 0.379˚C for a 200W heat load. Quite small I think you will agree.

A note on the inlet conditions I have chosen: Although the temperature and pressure at inlet do affect the temperature rise these effects are negligible within the range that we see in PC water-cooling and therefore I have just used arbitrary values. The inlet conditions become of greater importance at higher pressures and temperatures.

Just to add a pretty picture and some more scienceyness to the post, I plotted the temperature rise for a range of flow rates and heat loads (attached)


This graph shows a couple of interesting things:

The temperature increases are, as previously stated, quite small and therefore normally the loop order will not make a significant difference. Having said that, if you had two GTX 480’s with full cover blocks you would see a temperature rise of 2.2˚C for 1 GPM, 1.1˚C for 2 GPM (assuming 300W for each card). For someone chasing every single degree it would be unwise to put these before the CPU, especially in the unlikely event that they have a low flow rate (if you can afford 2 480’s then you can afford a decent pump!).

Also worth noting is the effect of flow rate on water temperature rise. The gap between 1 and 2 GPM is very significant, so moving from 1 to 2 GPM will half the temperature increase you see across each component. You get a similar result moving from 2 – 3 GPM, although the effect on water heat rise is less. This shows that flow rate is important up to a point. It is good to ensure that you are getting a decent flow rate, but adding more and more pumps to the system leads to diminishing returns. Please note that I am speaking purely about water temperature rise here, I make no reference to effectiveness of heat transfer, turbulence etc.

This leads me to my final conclusion. Yes, loop order can be important. If you are chasing every last degree and you have a weak pump and / or high heat loads, put the CPU first. However for the majority of us loop order is unimportant as far as water temperature increase is concerned. As the graph shows, the temperature increases are very small, and better results can be obtained by increasing your flow rate. Therefore in most cases it will be better to build a cleaner loop, thus increasing your flow rate, than it will be to change the component order and maybe lower your flow rate. Also, I don’t want my system to resemble a plate of spaghetti!

I am working on the effect of a water temp increase at inlet on the temp of the CPU, it is a little trickier and not something we are usually bothered with in my work so I don't know how to do it off the top of my head.

Please feel free to add any questions, comments or random abuse.

John

Edited by GingerJohn - 9/6/10 at 11:40am
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