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post #2281 of 3068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukemaster View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHIMington View Post

The problem is that no one have test the Phanteks hub with a scope yet, so no one knows how exactly it works, another thing is that PWM is basicly turning the 12v supply to the motor on and off repeatedly, native PWM fan have its PWM circuit receive PWM signal and convert it into duty cycle that where tuned for that specific fan for optimal performance, while the Phanteks hub-if suspected correctly-simply convert the raw pwm signal to pulse the 12v, this way of control is not very efficient because different electronic components requires different duty cycle to operate properly.


this is the pwm control circuit example nidec themself supply, which is very similar to every pwm circuit.(notice the 555 cmos timer chip, this is what convert raw PWM signal into useful 12v duty cycle.
I could be wrong, but that actually looks like a PWM signal generator. I see 5 volts(powers it and is in the range fans respond to when pulsed ~4.3 out also make sense because of losses in the circuit) in and a 100k pot that seems to change the duty cycle. The PWM fan would turn this signal into fan speeds.

The nice thing here is you can make your own fan controller and control multiple fans because the PWM pin does not actually push much power. The fan is still getting its power from the 12 volt line.

This is different than the voltage control model. If it uses a linear regulator it has to drop voltage as heat(inefficient) while using switching regulator, some fans made noise if the frequency was too low.



The diagram shown is indeed a simple variable duty cycle, PWM generator.

In actuality, a PC PWM controller based on the Intel PWM standard, "pushes" no power at all.

It sinks current to ground.

Each PWM controlled device is responsible for supplying its own 5V level.

Therein lies the problem as you add greater numbers of controlled devices . . . . . the amount of current that the controller has to sink to ground rises, and manipulating Ohm's law, voltage dropped equals I squared R, the drop across the protective resistors on the controller's PWM input raises the logic low voltage level that the controlled devices see above the threshold to where it isn't seen as off-time any more, and you loose progressively more low speed control as you add devices.


It's a much better analogy, and much more accurate to think of it as the signal current level overwhelms the controller, than that the controller signal becomes too weak as more devices are added.


Darlene
post #2282 of 3068
Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

The diagram shown is indeed a simple variable duty cycle, PWM generator.

In actuality, a PC PWM controller based on the Intel PWM standard, "pushes" no power at all.

It sinks current to ground.

Each PWM controlled device is responsible for supplying its own 5V level.

Therein lies the problem as you add greater numbers of controlled devices . . . . . the amount of current that the controller has to sink to ground rises, and manipulating Ohm's law, voltage dropped equals I squared R, the drop across the protective resistors on the controller's PWM input raises the logic low voltage level that the controlled devices see above the threshold to where it isn't seen as off-time any more, and you loose progressively more low speed control as you add devices.


It's a much better analogy, and much more accurate to think of it as the signal current level overwhelms the controller, than that the controller signal becomes too weak as more devices are added.


Darlene
Another great job of explaining things to us laymen. thumb.gif

Is it possible to add something into the PWM signal lead to solve this problem when we want to control more PWM fans than lead normally will?
post #2283 of 3068
Thank you IT Diva.

That explains it VERY well.

Would one be able to buffer with more components on a controller(lets say a mosfet that reproduces this sink [to ground?] controlled by the boards header).
Edited by Nukemaster - 10/7/14 at 6:29am
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post #2284 of 3068
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by IT Diva View Post

The diagram shown is indeed a simple variable duty cycle, PWM generator.

In actuality, a PC PWM controller based on the Intel PWM standard, "pushes" no power at all.

It sinks current to ground.

Each PWM controlled device is responsible for supplying its own 5V level.

Therein lies the problem as you add greater numbers of controlled devices . . . . . the amount of current that the controller has to sink to ground rises, and manipulating Ohm's law, voltage dropped equals I squared R, the drop across the protective resistors on the controller's PWM input raises the logic low voltage level that the controlled devices see above the threshold to where it isn't seen as off-time any more, and you loose progressively more low speed control as you add devices.


It's a much better analogy, and much more accurate to think of it as the signal current level overwhelms the controller, than that the controller signal becomes too weak as more devices are added.


Darlene
Another great job of explaining things to us laymen. thumb.gif

Is it possible to add something into the PWM signal lead to solve this problem when we want to control more PWM fans than lead normally will?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nukemaster View Post

Thank you IT Diva.

That explains it VERY well.

Would one be able to buffer with more components on a controller(lets say a mosfet that reproduces this sink [to ground?] controlled by the boards header).


The best way is to use a cmos 555 as an inverting Schmitt trigger and an open collector/open drain output device.

Here's a link to the post I did not long ago with a schematic and some working prototypes:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1470233/pwn-splitter-pwn-fan-controller-pwn-motherboard-pins-questions/70#post_22908640

The scope shot with the incredibly low off time voltage level was with all 18 of the Corsair PWM fans being run from that channel.

I passed one of the prototypes on to geggeg who reported that he got a lower min speed with several fans connected, than with just a single fan without the board, so some fans are just incredibly sensitive to the off-time voltage level.


Darlene
post #2285 of 3068
Thanks for the info and circuit.
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post #2286 of 3068
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiSK View Post

I knew this, but somehow it's only just occurred to me that Scythe's part numbers were also just custom orders. So that's why the 2150rpm is called the AP45 and not the AP16: just because it was ordered later.

D1225C12B1AP-11 (500 rpm)
D1225C12B2AP-12 (800 rpm)
D1225C12B3AP-13 (1.150 rpm)
D1225C12B4AP-14 (1,450 rpm)
D1225C12B5AP-15 (1,850 rpm)

D1225C12B7AP-29 (3,000 rpm)
D1225C12B9AP-30 (4.250 rpm)
D1225C12BBAP-31 (5.400 rpm)

D1225C12B6AP-45 (2,150 rpm)
So we should start calling them B5APs instead of AP15s smile.gif

I'm not so sure about this one.

The reason why is because they appear in Nidec's data sheets:
http://www.nidec-servo.com/en/digital/pdf/D1225C.pdf

Custom orders would not appear in the formal Nidec data sheets. They would be different for each order. The fact that these appear in the data sheets suggests that they are not custom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WHIMington View Post

The speed of the fan can be determined by the model number before "AP"(ZP for PWM), B5 means it is rated 1850 rpm, B6 means it is rated 2150 rpm, so on and so forth.

This is correct. Each model has it's own assigned speeds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WHIMington View Post

Yes, the 2-3 digi end numbers are customers specific numbers, I would assume every OEM order have their own number so that customers life is easier when they wants to re order

Yep. The only problem for us right now is that any order would need quantities of 10,000 or more. That's the minimum order amount for Nidec wants before beginning production.

QP can also mean PWM. It's the "Z" or the "Q" that denotes PWM functionality in Nidec's naming scheme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doyll View Post

Another great job of explaining things to us laymen. thumb.gif

Is it possible to add something into the PWM signal lead to solve this problem when we want to control more PWM fans than lead normally will?

Could you somehow combine it with a potentiometer?

Then you could just lower the voltage when you want manual control or leave it on PWM for dynamic scaling? Alternatively, you could use software override.
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post #2287 of 3068
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyElf View Post

I'm not so sure about this one.

The reason why is because they appear in Nidec's data sheets:
http://www.nidec-servo.com/en/digital/pdf/D1225C.pdf

Custom orders would not appear in the formal Nidec data sheets. They would be different for each order. The fact that these appear in the data sheets suggests that they are not custom.

Huh? I don't see AP-11, AP-12, ... AP-15 on any page of the PDF you linked? It's all AZ-00, implying that the 00 is replaced by order number later.
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post #2288 of 3068
Recently put my GTs in push/pull for my Ncase build. They seem to cool my CPU better compared to the original noctua fans. I had the AP14 on it but they were slightly too loud for my taste.

post #2289 of 3068
By the way, how does one join this club? smile.gif
post #2290 of 3068
Quote:
Originally Posted by starjammer View Post

By the way, how does one join this club? smile.gif
need a minimum of 15 typhoons to join. tongue.gif

Sent from my Note 3 ( No, it's not an eyephone!)
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