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post #2141 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

Do you have any other mouse around?
If you can prove that this only happens with your RAT mouse on your computer, you might be on to something.
Else, it's just checking your settings, there might be something that can be tweaked to improve performance wink.gif
Oh, and his rant is far off the truth, for he's blaming on a peripherals company a problem that arises when activating a software fix for a monitor problem (we're talking of OS, game makers and monitor manufacturers here, notice there's nothing about input peripherals related to V-Sync).

What I agree with on his comment is that manufactor tell their customers to disable Vsync often, without contemplating that the user might wish to use Vsync as their main method when gaming for image quality, performance and zero tearing purposes.
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post #2142 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post

What I agree with on his comment is that manufactor tell their customers to disable Vsync often, without contemplating that the user might wish to use Vsync as their main method when gaming for image quality, performance and zero tearing purposes.

Vsync has always been a dirty hack to fix something they were supposed to when TFT screens were gaining popularity, and as such, it is bound to cause more problems than what it really fixes. If so many manufacturers tell the costumers to disable Vsync -and here I'm going to assume that manufacturers know much more about it than the average consumer-, don't you think it might be because Vsync might be problematic, rather than them being lazy? wink.gif

I agree that Vsync might give a small plus on visual quality perception and frame smoothness, but it does absolutely nothing good when it comes to raw performance, only percieved one at best.
post #2143 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

Vsync has always been a dirty hack to fix something they were supposed to when TFT screens were gaining popularity, and as such, it is bound to cause more problems than what it really fixes. If so many manufacturers tell the costumers to disable Vsync -and here I'm going to assume that manufacturers know much more about it than the average consumer-, don't you think it might be because Vsync might be problematic, rather than them being lazy? wink.gif
I agree that Vsync might give a small plus on visual quality perception and frame smoothness, but it does absolutely nothing good when it comes to raw performance, only percieved one at best.

I see what you mean, and I do feel that some games have better Vsync than others if that makes sense. Also, I for one cannot game without Vsync. I just can't bring myself to do it. The smoothness and fluidety of gameplay is unbeatable if the game performs well.
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post #2144 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post

I see what you mean, and I do feel that some games have better Vsync than others if that makes sense. Also, I for one cannot game without Vsync. I just can't bring myself to do it. The smoothness and fluidety of gameplay is unbeatable if the game performs well.

Yes, it makes sense because Vsync is software implementation dependant.

Afaik there are two or three different popular Vsync implementations, and they do things quite a bit different, so that might be a reason why on some programs it feels smoother than on others, or why it gives input lag on some games and not on others.

And yes, being used to something always makes change harder to endure.

I switched not too long ago to a 120Hz monitor and I wouldn't go back. I tried Vsync on that monitor, and I didn't feel it was all that necessary, I'm barely ever seeing any tearing anyway (but it's ok since I never was sensitive to this glitch).

You might wanna check frames to render ahead and whether you have double or triple buffering enabled, see if it helps wink.gif
post #2145 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

Yes, it makes sense because Vsync is software implementation dependant.
Afaik there are two or three different popular Vsync implementations, and they do things quite a bit different, so that might be a reason why on some programs it feels smoother than on others, or why it gives input lag on some games and not on others.
And yes, being used to something always makes change harder to endure.
I switched not too long ago to a 120Hz monitor and I wouldn't go back. I tried Vsync on that monitor, and I didn't feel it was all that necessary, I'm barely ever seeing any tearing anyway (but it's ok since I never was sensitive to this glitch).
You might wanna check frames to render ahead and whether you have double or triple buffering enabled, see if it helps wink.gif

How do I adjust the frames to render ahead on my AMD GPU's and what value should it be on? Is it to be used in combination with an fps limiter, or tripple buffer? Thanks mate.
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post #2146 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by BradleyW View Post

How do I adjust the frames to render ahead on my AMD GPU's and what value should it be on? Is it to be used in combination with an fps limiter, or tripple buffer? Thanks mate.

I recommend you use an application like RadeonPro for ease of use and profile management.

In the app, you click at the profile you want to modify (top right) and go to the second tab from the left. On AMD hardware, frames to render ahead is called Flip Queue Size.

They are usually on 3, you might feel an improvement on input lag if set to 0 or 1, but I'm uncertain whether it will work with Vsync or not. I never tried, so my knowledge about how it affects your case is very limited.

I suggest you try triple buffer (if you weren't already), and from here on, you can tweak the values and make some tests.

Sorry I can't be of more help.
post #2147 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

Save your rant for some other case.
It's very simple here :
In most engines, V-Sync causes input lag.
You disable V-Sync, and input lag is gone.
That happens with EVERY mouse brand.
It's just that Mad Catz/Razer/Logitech/Roccat/Zowie/Omgheadshot can do nothing about it because it's the way V-Sync works, and the way game engines are built.
Having said that, he should look into a way to resolve this, because it's his system config that makes the input lag, not the mouse.
I suggest checking if triple buffer is enabled, and check the value of frames to render ahead.

I wasn't ranting. It was just an honest opinion, trying to point out how absurd it is to try and correct a fault by disabling a feature. This isn't the first time I've seen a piece of hardware act funny and the manufacturer tells you to shut off some feature to get it working properly. It may be an OK troubleshooting step, but it's not a solution. In fact, I'm trying to point out that, although the symptom may change with the v-sync setting, it's likely something else causing the problem considering not many other people with this mouse are having this particular problem (alternating lag).

I personally have never experienced mouse lag in any game I have. And I always use v-sync in games that exhibit tearing. So, perhaps some people are more sensitive to it than I am, or not all systems will do this when using v-sync. For example, I use v-sync in Guild Wars every day, and I have never noticed any lag. My FPS is pretty much pinned at 60Hz, and my mouse never lags. I also use it in a few FPS games, and again I have never noticed my mouse lagging.
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post #2148 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

I wasn't ranting. It was just an honest opinion, trying to point out how absurd it is to try and correct a fault by disabling a feature.

As DeMS said, v-sync is a hack to try and solve an issue and it brings with it its own issues such as input lag, therefore if it's obvious that v-sync is causing this input lag (which it is) then this is nothing to do with the R.A.T. itself. As we know, some people are more sensitive to tearing than others: those that are sensitive to it are liable to also be sensitive to any input lag so it's going to be a trade off between whether you have input lag or tearing but I hope we can all agree that this isn't something caused by the R.A.T., yes?
post #2149 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergatroid View Post

I wasn't ranting. It was just an honest opinion, trying to point out how absurd it is to try and correct a fault by disabling a feature. This isn't the first time I've seen a piece of hardware act funny and the manufacturer tells you to shut off some feature to get it working properly. It may be an OK troubleshooting step, but it's not a solution. In fact, I'm trying to point out that, although the symptom may change with the v-sync setting, it's likely something else causing the problem considering not many other people with this mouse are having this particular problem (alternating lag).
I personally have never experienced mouse lag in any game I have. And I always use v-sync in games that exhibit tearing. So, perhaps some people are more sensitive to it than I am, or not all systems will do this when using v-sync. For example, I use v-sync in Guild Wars every day, and I have never noticed any lag. My FPS is pretty much pinned at 60Hz, and my mouse never lags. I also use it in a few FPS games, and again I have never noticed my mouse lagging.

You probably can't notice input lag in those games the same way I can't notice tearing, that's ok smile.gif

What I was pointing out on one of those posts is that Vsync (configuration) is the problem here, not the hardware. The way Vsync works, it is prone to cause those glitches with some configurations, depending on Vsync implementation.

So it's not a problem of Mad Catz, really, or any other hardware company, but rather a software problem. When such problem arises, usually there is a need to tweak some settings so the problem can be lowered or even eliminated.

I'll point out to other instance where people is discussing input lag and Vsync and it's not related to mice :
http://neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=474813
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-bad-company-2-pc/1409737-vsync-mouse-lag-fix.html
http://mystrd.at/articles/v-sync-mouse-lag-how-to-fix-it/
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1695869
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/116065-25-sync-sync
http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=39064
http://forums.trendyent.com/showthread.php?38775-Want-the-FPS-cap-removed-Want-to-use-Vsync-without-mouse-lag-Look-here!
http://www.overclock.net/t/669308/vsync-mouse-delay-still

I could go all day rolleyes.gif
post #2150 of 3822
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeMS View Post

I recommend you use an application like RadeonPro for ease of use and profile management.
In the app, you click at the profile you want to modify (top right) and go to the second tab from the left. On AMD hardware, frames to render ahead is called Flip Queue Size.
They are usually on 3, you might feel an improvement on input lag if set to 0 or 1, but I'm uncertain whether it will work with Vsync or not. I never tried, so my knowledge about how it affects your case is very limited.
I suggest you try triple buffer (if you weren't already), and from here on, you can tweak the values and make some tests.
Sorry I can't be of more help.

Cheers.
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