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sooooo i want to make a chiller

post #1 of 35
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so i have a pretty good loop and wanted to make a tec chiller to add into the loop, nothing crazy so i dont go too far below ambient (i dont want to insulate)

here is my background on tecs:.... *cricket cricket*

so i need a lot of help, right now i have a cpu and waterblock and plan on adding in a 5970 to my loop that will also be WCed, how would i go about adding in a tec chiller? heres my loop path res/pump->240rad->pump->360rad->cpu->5970->5870->res/pump
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post #2 of 35
Here is my chiller build thread. http://www.overclock.net/peltiers-te...ontroller.html

These guys answer alot of questions about building a chiller in that thread and any of Ultra's threads on his direct die cooling

Also there is a sticky on getting started with tecs.
post #3 of 35
And here's a thread i did for a chiller a while a go now
http://www.overclock.net/peltiers-te...rasonic2s.html

if you dont have a milling machine or access to one then your gonna need to get someone to make it for you . NOW a water chiller is a water to water chiller so you will need 2 loops onr for your cpu and gpu and the cold side of your rads and one for the hot side of your tec and your radiators .

if you want to stay above dew point then you will need a controller to insure the cold water doesn't go below this point

if your about to say you want a rad inline with the cold side of the loop then the whole project is a waste of time
post #4 of 35
If you are keen on making your own TEC water chiller it would take quite a bit of work to do, and a fair bit of trial and error to get a good waterblock design that transferred the heat/cold to the water efficiently. And if you don't have access to a milling machine, then it is even more time consuming to do, but still possible with a dremel or drill and a lot of patience can work.

The parts aren't that expensive, you can buy delrin/acetal from ebay for around $10, and you can pick up small offcuts of copper pretty cheap at scrap metal yards - but the actual time to design and make the chiller is what you pay for if others make it for you.

Once you have all the bits needed, and your design is done, then it's a matter of cutting and machining everything and hoping you don't make any mistakes and also hoping ypour design can actually transfer the heat/cold efficiently - otherwise it's back to the drawing board

Alternatively, you can check the forums for the guys who are making them and pay one of them to make you one.

However you get the chiller, as mentioned, you'll need a second loop to cool the hotside of the TECs, luckily you already have two rads, so you can just cange your loop to the following:
Cold Loop: res/pump->tec chiller coldside->cpu->5970->5870->240rad->res/pump
Hot Loop: res/pump->tec chiller Hotside->360rad->res/pump

You could also just run both rads on the tec hotside.

Once you got all that, then you need to power the TECs, and if you don't want to go under ambient too much (ie. you want to stay above dew point to stop condensation) then you'll also need a decent PWM controller so control power to the TECs and limit it as needed.
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post #5 of 35
Dont put a radiator in the cold loop. This would be working to re-heat chilled water from the tec-chiller. Put the extra rad' in the hot-side loop.
post #6 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4goo View Post
Dont put a radiator in the cold loop. This would be working to re-heat chilled water from the tec-chiller. Put the extra rad' in the hot-side loop.
Once the water comes from the CPU and then GPU waterblocks, it will no longer be sub ambient (unless he is going to run a lot of TECs in his chiller), so any extra heat you can remove will allow the TEC to cool the water better.

Why - because it is easier to remove heat from the water via a radiator and the large surface area it provides for the fans to cool the water passing through, then it is to transfer the cold temps from the TEC back into the water with a small 40mm waterblock and the limited surface area that provides
Edited by un-nefer - 10/11/10 at 3:59am
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post #7 of 35
Ah but you see a well engineered chiller doesn't need the added support of a radiator on cold side, and potentially has almost as much surface area to cool as an average radiator. You have to remember that the intent of a chiller is to have it chill and completely cool the hot stuff. Then the radiators completely cool the chiller.
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post #8 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by flak-spammer View Post
Ah but you see a well engineered chiller doesn't need the added support of a radiator on cold side, and potentially has almost as much surface area to cool as an average radiator.
I honestly doubt a 40mmx40mmx10mm TEC block can achieve the same surface area as a 360mm radiator, especially a home made TEC block. Muffy's block is arguably the best designed block for surface area atm, and even it would not have the same surface area as a decent 360mm radiator.

However considering the better thermal conductivity of copper, it doesn't have to have as good a surface area - it could have half the surface area and be as good - but a 360mm rad still has at least 20x more tube/fin area then even Muffy's block

Or put it this way, a 360mm radiator can remove 600watts of heat - the better 40mm TEC can remove around ~226w at full power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flak-spammer View Post
You have to remember that the intent of a chiller is to have it chill and completely cool the hot stuff. Then the radiators completely cool the chiller.
I totally understand, which is why I suggested both options to the OP in the post you replied to

BUT, if the water temp exiting the last GPU waterblock goes above ambient with the chiller in place, then using a radiator to cool that water temp back to ambient is definitely a good option.

Remember, we are not talking about a simple TEC chiller cooling a can of cola or something - to remove the heat generated by modern a CPU/GPU you need A LOT of qmax from your TEC chiller as you need to remove a lot of heat:

ie.
AMD 955 @ 4ghz = ~220w
HD5970 OC = ~440w
HD5870 OC = ~220w

That's ~880w of heat

Say your chiller's blocks are 75% efficient, you'd need TECs with a qmax total in the region of 1200w just to match the heat being generated - and I don't know of any group of 4 40mm TECs that can achieve that much qmax.

Now consider a decent 240mm radiator can remove 400w of heat - you will now only need TECs with a qmax total in the region of 800w, and that is quite achievable with 4x TECs.

You can see how adding a radiator to the cold loop can be of benefit, depending on your system.




EDIT: Just wanted to say that the above is very oversimplified, and I'm sure others will go into detail and correct me if needed
Edited by un-nefer - 10/11/10 at 4:39pm
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post #9 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post
I honestly doubt a 40mmx40mmx10mm TEC block can achieve the same surface area as a 360mm radiator, especially a home made TEC block. Muffy's block is arguably the best designed block for surface area atm, and even it would not have the same surface area as a decent 360mm radiator.

However considering the better thermal conductivity of copper, it doesn't have to have as good a surface area - it could have half the surface area and be as good - but a 360mm rad still has at least 20x more tube/fin area then even Muffy's block

Or put it this way, a 360mm radiator can remove 600watts of heat - the better 40mm TEC can remove around ~226w at full power.


I totally understand, which is why I suggested both options to the OP in the post you replied to

BUT, if the water temp exiting the last GPU waterblock goes above ambient with the chiller in place, then using a radiator to cool that water temp back to ambient is definitely a good option.

Remember, we are not talking about a simple TEC chiller cooling a can of cola or something - to remove the heat generated by modern a CPU/GPU you need A LOT of qmax from your TEC chiller as you need to remove a lot of heat:

ie.
AMD 955 @ 4ghz = ~220w
HD5970 OC = ~440w
HD5870 OC = ~220w

That's ~880w of heat

Say your chiller's blocks are 75% efficient, you'd need TECs with a qmax total in the region of 1200w just to match the heat being generated - and I don't know of any group of 4 40mm TECs that can achieve that much qmax.

Now consider a decent 240mm radiator can remove 400w of heat - you will now only need TECs with a qmax total in the region of 800w, and that is quite achievable with 4x TECs.

You can see how adding a radiator to the cold loop can be of benefit, depending on your system.




EDIT: Just wanted to say that the above is very oversimplified, and I'm sure others will go into detail and correct me if needed


well then your better off having more rads than a chiller and a rad in the same loop THE WHOLE point of the chiller is so you can go below ambient but if your unable to do that then there's NO point in .it

Oh and dont for a second suggest you should degrease the low rate to create a DELTA that DOESN'T help at ALL it actually makes the situation worse
post #10 of 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrasonic2 (muffy) View Post
well then your better off having more rads than a chiller and a rad in the same loop THE WHOLE point of the chiller is so you can go below ambient but if your unable to do that then there's NO point in .it
I'm sorry if you think my earlier post was an attack on you - quite to the contrary, I was simply stating that your product is much better then something a DIY will create and that if your product doesn't have as much surface area, then a DIY job without a milling machine and access to recreate a similar design will be infinitely worse

Also, I never said a radiator will take temps below ambient, so it is surprising that you'd suggest I did - my exact words:
Quote:
using a radiator to cool that water temp back to ambient
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrasonic2 (muffy) View Post
Oh and dont for a second suggest you should degrease the low rate to create a DELTA that DOESN'T help at ALL it actually makes the situation worse
Are you saying that taking the CPU/GPU loop temp down to ambient before it is passes through the TEC chiller will make the situation worse? Please explain.

A TEC is a TEC is a TEC - all they do is move heat from one side to the other and their overall cooling ability is limited by the TEC itself and it's qmax is set by the power and current it uses - so any decrease in temp on one side will benefit the other side.

Obviously, you would need to remove the heat being transferred to the hotside of the TEC as well, that is a given, so it was not mentioned as I was keeping it as simple as possible.




I have to say that I am surprised that you responded in such a way. I clearly did not aim to offend with my post and I clearly ended my post with an option for you or others to comment and correct if required - yet you simply posted just to flame and didn't offer any information that would help me and others understand why my post was incorrect

Whatever, I'll leave it to you.
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