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post #321 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kragarmendes View Post
Ever had a x52 CD-drive that really did x52?
Mice with 8 bit buffer give exactly max 127 samples in one count. Just test it if you dont trust me. It's exactly 1008 mm/s for 1600 dpi and 500 Hz. In log file for Abyssus at 500 Hz we see max 113 samples in one count. So it's surely not 8 bit buffer problem.
Edited by outerspace - 6/8/11 at 4:41pm
post #322 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kragarmendes View Post
That's some pretty amazing insights, F u r u y á!

1. It's a "Razer's" 3G sensor, though firmware is a unknown factor.
2. They show how easily (@900mm/s) even 16bit interfaces* meet their limits @500Hz exhibiting clipping as a consequence.
3. They show 1000Hz (at least on this sensor/firmware) tends to be more prone to jitter/regular skipping/inaccuracy in the milisecond range (500Hz must be time-averaging them out).
4. Nice graphs

*AFAIK mice nowadays have a 16bit interface, at least mouse-to-PC wise (USB) which fits the calculation here:
log(897/25.4*1600)/log(2) = 15.786 (a bit weird since having two directions would need another bit ^^)
However, Bullveyr has mentioned before that most sensors employ an 8bit-interface, I guess mouse-to-firmware that is. I don't know the details but common sense suggests that the sensor then needs to be polled by the firmware/MCU with at least twice the USB polling rate, right? Or is it just polling at the specified frame rate? Any insights on that are welcome

A script is great as well! That kinda motivates me to publish my Octave script
I am glad that F u r u y á! didn't let himself get scared away. After all, misunderstandings are bound to happen when our common base, the Enlish language, is not everbody's first (not mine either ).

The logger method is easy and available but it has to be kept in mind (as outerspace himself mentioned) that it only reports what the mouse/sensor "sees" which is only indirectly correlated to reality i.e. physical movements.
So despite their can't-be-easily-tried-at-home-nature, the ESR results and the like should be expected to be more accurate as to the mice's ability to digitalize physical movement but at the same time they give less detailed insight on the implementation (e.g. polling rate fluctuations or similar).
I just hope and think that the results of both, the "physical" and the "digital" approach, deliver close enough results that distinction via comments to the cells of Skylit's sheet are sufficient
Thanks, Kragarmendes.

About the polling: I don't think that USB and MCU can have their clocks 100% synchronized (USB is clocked by motherboard; MCU is clocked by the "mouseboard"), so I definetly agree with you, the sensor should be polled by MCU at higher rates than the MCU is polled by USB. I think that 2 times isn't enought, it should be 5 or even 10 times of the USB polling rate. BUT... those are just my thoughts. I don't have any evidences to support that.

And english is also not my first language



Quote:
Originally Posted by outerspace View Post
Thanks. It's actually not good at 500 Hz... At least for me.

Did you try test Abyssus without driver?
Quote:
Originally Posted by outerspace View Post
1. Max value for 8 bit buffer is 11111111 (binary) = 255 (decimal).
2. 255/2 = 127 for one dirction. Biffer is divided between two directions (axis): X and Y.
3. Negaccel speed for mouse depend on buffer is MAX.BUFFER.VALUE*POLLING.RATE/DPI (inches/s). For 400 dpi and 125 Hz is 127*125/400 = 39,6875 inches/s = 1 m/s (known number ). For 1600 dpi and 500 Hz is also 1 m/s.
4. Max value for 16 bit buffer is 65535/2 = 32767 in one direction. It's far enough for all possible speeds and mouse resolutions. For 125 Hz and 5000 dpi (worst situation) negaccel speed is 819,175 inches/s = 20 m/s

I'm shure that Abyssus have 16 bit buffer and early negaccel speed at 500 Hz is just driver fault.
Here is the tests. Without driver it clips exacly at 127


Without driver:



With driver:


As you predicted, driver does affect the performance (it lowers the perfect control speed by 12%; counts and polling looks steadier without driver).

It seems that this mouse has onboard memory that saves my configuration. After I uninstalled the driver, rebooted PC and changed USB port, I had the same feeling in the sensitivity and polling remained the same (500Hz). That's the good news.

The bad news: Am I wrong or it looks like it has 8-bit bus? So is it not a legit 3G sensor? Remeber that this Abyssus is the 1800dpi version (that comes with the Cyclosa bundle). It's not a regular Abyssus 3.5G.


And which bus you guys are refering to?

(bus 1 or bus 2?)
post #323 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by outerspace View Post
Mice with 8 bit buffer give exactly max 127 samples in one count.
Only if you move it to the right (or up for y-axis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kragarmendes View Post
*AFAIK mice nowadays have a 16bit interface, at least mouse-to-PC wise (USB)
...
However, Bullveyr has mentioned before that most sensors employ an 8bit-interface, I guess mouse-to-firmware that is. I don't know the details but common sense suggests that the sensor then needs to be polled by the firmware/MCU with at least twice the USB polling rate, right? Or is it just polling at the specified frame rate? Any insights on that are welcome
Quote:
Originally Posted by F u r u y á View Post
About the polling: I don't think that USB and MCU can have their clocks 100% synchronized (USB is clocked by motherboard; MCU is clocked by the "mouseboard"), so I definetly agree with you, the sensor should be polled by MCU at higher rates than the MCU is polled by USB. I think that 2 times isn't enought, it should be 5 or even 10 times of the USB polling rate. BUT... those are just my thoughts. I don't have any evidences to support that.
Yes, sensors usually have a 8bit serial port, exceptions are the A9500 and afaik also the twin-eye.

The serial port of the A3090 for example clocks at up to 500kHz or 2MHz (depending on mode), so your on the safe side.

Afaik the twin-eye in the original Lachesis only had a 500Hz SPI.
post #324 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullveyr View Post
Only if you move it to the right (or up for y-axis).
You mean that for left and down it's must be -127 (very impotant remark! )? Or what?

F u r u y á,

Can you test it with 125 Hz?

I think it's better if you install driver again, reset settings to default (if it possible) and completely remove driver (check it attentively). After that change polling rate and dpi by microswitches and do another test with 125 and 1000 Hz.

They cant use 8 bit buffer instead of 16 if they said in specs: 16-bit ultra-wide data path. It's fraud.
post #325 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by outerspace View Post
You mean that for left and down it's must be -127 (very impotant remark! )? Or what?
The range of delta x/y is from -128 to +127.
post #326 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by outerspace View Post
You mean that for left and down it's must be -127 (very impotant remark! )? Or what?

F u r u y á,

Can you test it with 125 Hz?

I think it's better if you install driver again, reset settings to default (if it possible) and completely remove driver (check it attentively). After that change polling rate and dpi by microswitches and do another test with 125 and 1000 Hz.

They cant use 8 bit buffer instead of 16 if they said in specs: 16-bit ultra-wide data path. It's fraud.
As I said my Abyssus is the 1800dpi version suposedly 3G sensor (instead of 3.5G) and doesn't have switches (haven't you read my post? ). I will test for 125hz and 1000hz later, now I'm lazy eating breakfast and watching GSL
post #327 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by F u r u y á View Post
As I said my Abyssus is the 1800dpi version suposedly 3G sensor (instead of 3.5G) and doesn't have switches (haven't you read my post? ). I will test for 125hz and 1000hz later, now I'm lazy eating breakfast and watching GSL
My english is bad and sometimes I just dont notice/read some things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullveyr View Post
The range of delta x/y is from -128 to +127.
Intresting. For all mice? I test mice for movements only from left to right (for some technical reasons) so I never notice it.

Kragarmendes,

If it have max 127 counts in 1600 dpi @125 Hz and @1000 Hz then it's 8 bit buffer problem and strange driver behaviour just misinform me.
Edited by outerspace - 6/9/11 at 5:44am
post #328 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by outerspace View Post
Intresting. For all mice? I test mice for movements only from left to right (for some technical reasons) so I never notice it.
Dunno, I haven't read every sensor data sheet but I don't remember seeing it the other way around (-127 to +128), it's certainly the same for PixArt.
Because of the "zero" you allways have an uneven number but it doen't really matter if max. positive or negative x/y value is 1 higher.
post #329 of 1549
Haha, #322 opened my eyes! I read 3G all along but didn't think about it at all because I had never heard of different Abyssuses and was sure there was only one

Probably Razer had some spare, dusty Salmosa PBCs lying around and squeezed them into Abyssus shells Did the Salmosa have an 8bit data path??
Funny how the driver is messing it up even more

In case it is not clear yet, the 8 vs. 16bit talk is about "Bus 2". "Bus 1" is the one Bullveyr has reported as being 8bit in most cases and polled at speeds several orders of magnitude higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullveyr View Post
Afaik the twin-eye in the original Lachesis only had a 500Hz SPI.
What does the SPI stand for? Is what the sensor vendors specify as maximum frame rate equivalent to the maximum polling rate ("Bus 1")?

Edit: SPI I see... So the Lachesis had 500kHz or really just 500Hz??
Edited by Kragarmendes - 6/9/11 at 7:36am
post #330 of 1549
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kragarmendes View Post
Is what the sensor vendors specify as maximum frame rate equivalent to the maximum polling rate ("Bus 1")?
No, FPS stand for Frames per Second or how many images the sensor makes per second

Quote:
So the Lachesis had 500kHz or really just 500Hz??
500Hz, at least that's what I was told.
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