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post #51 of 61

If it actually comes with an Antec 750 watt power supply, then that case should be a good buy. Just make sure that its not some generic PSU that newegg throws it to "sweeten" the deal.

However...

Here is a corsair 850 watt. It is a little more than 89 dollars, but it has a 70 amp 12 volt rail and
high efficiency. If you purchase this, it may be the last power supply you buy. With an Athenatech that might also be true, but for a different reason (hint: fire hazard) .
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139009
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php...tory4&reid=126
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/news/3529

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lezbianseagull View Post
Im confused, so I dont need a new Powersupply and I dont need 2x2 more gigs of ram?
Unfortunately, no one in this discussion was able to find a detailed (and unbiased) technical review for your specific model. However, based on the mediocre (not bad) reviews found for other Coolermaster models, one might consider investing in a higher quality unit in the 750 to 850 watt range (with a 56 amp 12 volt rail) and 80 plus efficiency. The Hardware Secrets website reviews have never misled me. In fact, when I second guessed those reviews and bought PSU's that they rated poorly, I discovered the hard way that they did know what they were talking about.

Your biggest problem with RAM is not that you do not have enough, or that the timings are bad, it is that your OS is not using it all efficiently. You will solve that problem when you switch to 64-bit.

From my experience here are some great models:
1) Thermaltake 850 watt tough power
2) Thermaltake 850 watt black widow modular
3) Corsair GS700 watt (only if you are not going to be overlocking very much)
4) Corsair GS800 watt
5) Antec has several great models.

And here are some that can catch on fire
1) Athena-tech 1000 watt (the same unit is actually used under about six brand names)
*It is internally identical to the Tagan Turbojet and Powertrain (manufactured by Topower), except that it is missing components present in those models.
*The difference between the 800, 900, and 1000 watt models is that they have different stickers. Not kidding.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817790002
Here is a quote from a newegg customer:
"If you want to die by fire I highly reccommend this power supply for you"
2) Xion 800 watt modular "Super Nova" (it is aptly named)
3) Just about anything called "Dynex", "Gold Star", "A-power", "Hunt Key", "Sunbeam", "Athena", or "Logisys". Some of these are actually three year old 450 watt to 550 watt PSU PCBs stuck in larger metal boxes with 700 watt stickers on them.

Here is an example of a PSU that fails under its advertised maximum wattage in less than three minutes (it happens at about 2:02):

Edited by Majestic_Lizard - 12/24/10 at 4:48pm
    
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post #52 of 61
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic_Lizard View Post

Your biggest problem with RAM is not that you do not have enough, or that the timings are bad, it is that your OS is not using it all efficiently. You will solve that problem when you switch to 64-bit.
Just for clarification one more time I OWN WINDOWS-7 64-bit

So using an O/S that utilizes all my RAM is not the issue you have made it out to be as I already own that O/S and can install it on my 2nd hard drive partition no problem.

The real issue is not that I dont own it, it is that with my knowledge, and with the help of Rockstar's operators, can not get the game to work with Windows-7 64-bit.
Edited by Lezbianseagull - 12/24/10 at 9:21pm
post #53 of 61

Try to remember that those responding to you on this thread are taking time out of their lives to try to help you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lezbianseagull View Post
Just for clarification. One more time, I OWN WINDOWS-7 64-bit.
...and from my earlier post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic_Lizard View Post
Right, but it actually needs to be installed.
One can see that this was not a point of confusion. You have to actually use the operating system to benefit from it. You have mentioned dual booting and that is a good idea that you should follow up on.

The lazy phone monkeys at Rockstar games lied to you, that game does work with Windows 7 64-bit. You keep referring to these employees as though they were expert authorities. You were not speaking to the game's programmers. You were speaking to young adults that felt you were intruding on the time they spend at work goofing off by farming for gold on WOW and sending text messages to their girlfriends.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/com...auto&os=64-bit

...and below are quotes and a link to a thread in which a users clearly exclaim it successfully installed:

"It works great with Windows 7 64-bit. I played 4 hours and no problems! You have to only click of the setup from the GTA 4 and go under Compatibility and run the setup in (windows vista or win2000... and it properly works!" -Intenso

"I've tried that game on 7 x64 with no problem." ;-) -Shadow Shd

"Works great here win 7 64-bit, steam version" -Mack

"Works great on 7 x64. Even better than on Vista x64. BTW, I bought the game" -Peppy B.


There does seem to be a common characteristic with the users in the below thread that are having issues (other than bad grammar); they are all trying to run pirated copies....


http://forums.mydigitallife.info/thr...and-Windows-7?

This user is simply stating that when he opened the directory on the disc he selected the executable and right clicked on properties and selected the compatibility mode tab and selected Windows 2000 or Windows Vista and that it installed just fine on his machine.

Photo below is a mock-up:


...and finally here are videos of it running in Windows 7 (most likely 64 as few gamers use 32)
(the people in the videos were having trouble with the game lagging, but they do have it working)

Edited by Majestic_Lizard - 12/25/10 at 12:25am
    
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post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic_Lizard View Post
The ratings for that brand's video cards have not been stellar (nor were they terrible). Links were posted. Some generic 700 power supplies are actually 450 watt power supplies with 700 watt power supply stickers on them. SO, NO, ALL 700 WATT POWER SUPPLIES ARE NOT THE SAME. PERIOD. Many hardware sites have discovered this and revealed it of certain models of their PSUs. Build quality does very. Please understand that when a minimum requirement for a video card on the 12 volt rail is 46 amps, that mathematically equals 550 watts for the single card alone. (AND NO, FOR THE LITERAL MINDED, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE CARD ACTUALLY USES 550 WATTS!! IT IS A SAFE THRESHOLD.)

Edit (FURTHER EXPLANATION OF MY POINT - NOT A REDACTION): THE REQUIREMENT FOR THE GTX 580, GTX 295, and GTX 480 are all 46 amps on the 12 volt rail. However, the GTX 295 requires a 680 watt power supply, and the 480 and 580 only require a 600 watt power supply. This is because they are referring to the 12 volt rail alone when they refer to the 46 amps. Otherwise the total amperage requirement would be the same for all cards. Now the actual cards actually use different amps and less than 46. But the 46 amps is the SAFE RATING. The fact is that the GTX 295 dual PCB uses the most amps, followed by the 480, followed by the 580 at about 32 amps. But the 46 amps gives you some cushion in due to many factors that can effect efficiency reducing the amps left available to the power supply.

To make this symple:
GTX 295 uses 416 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 680 watt PSU)
GTX 480 uses about 370 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 600 watt PSU)
GTX 580 uses about 363 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 600 watt PSU)
IF THE 46 AMP RATING REFERRED TO THE ENTIRE SYSTEM (WITH GOD KNOWS WHAT CPU AND HOW MANY DRIVES) THEY WOULD ALL REQUIRE THE SAME 550 WATT POWER SUPPLY. NOTICE THAT THEY DO NOT.

In synthetic benchmarks it gets a little heavier.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2010/...0_sli_review/7

Notice the power supply recommended for these cards by the author.


I really don't need to comment here. This like saying the way a combustion engine automobile uses gasoline has nothing to do with how fast it drives. The reason 80 Plus Certified is a big deal is not related to people wanting low electric bills (although this is an additional benefit of efficiency) it is related to wanting stable and strong power for the 12 volt rail with little rippling.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/181


See comments above. These things are related to one another, they are not mutually exclusive.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/181
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html


This was once true, but is no longer the case with the high resolutions being used with gaming (2560x1600). The way that windows accesses memory comes into play. There is an outdated article on Tom's Hardware that states that video card memory doesn't matter, but in the benchmarks of the article you can clearly see that for resolutions af 2560x1600, it undoubtedly does. This goes doubly when anti-aliasing is enabled on these resolutions.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...70,2428-5.html


Dude ... seriously ... no offense, but nearly everything you've posted here is ... hilarious.

The Coolermaster 700W Extreme Power, we both agree, is not a great PSU. However, it's NOT a 450W generic unit w/a 700W badge on it. And nobody ever implied that all 700W PSU's are created equal. Nice try with the straw-man there though

The point is, THAT 700W unit is more than adequate for any single card setup. Period. If you think it's not, then you are simply not doing your math correctly.

Any PCI-Ex card that has only a 6-pin and an 8-pin connector is not legally allowed to draw more than 300W. Yes, you as a consumer can cause some cards to consume a bit more wattage than that via OV/OC'ing, but out of the box, stock ... a card w/this plug arrangement is not allowed to draw over 300W.

Ergo, all of your claims about power consumption for the 295, 580, and 480 are comically over-inflated.

And as I said before, you are wrong about the 'meaning' of a PSU's efficiency rating. It has NOTHING TO DO with 'stable power' or 'low ripple'. Efficiency is the ratio between the power provided to your components divided by the amount of power pulled from the wall. PERIOD.

And your car analogy is really great ... for a laugh. The fastest cars in the world get like 1 mile a gallon, dude.

And your little part at the end there, where I was talking about system RAM, and then you go on and post Tom's articles that are on the subject of VRAM and not about system RAM ... classic lulz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Majestic_Lizard View Post
I have tried to be polite and patient. This individual is the one giving out VERY WRONG information.

3) "A GTX580 DOES NOT require 46A of power. That rating is for the whole system with the card in it."
I didn't say the GTX580 used 46A of power, did I? I said that was what the minimum requirement of the manufacturer. I said 46A equals 550 watts of power. If this person had read one of my posts in another thread you would see that the GTX580 uses 363 watts.

The manufacturer's requirement for a GTX480 is, at the minimum, a 600 watt power supply with 46 amps on the 12 volt rail. It doesn't say 46 amps for the entire system, it says 46 amps for the 12 volt rail. 46 amps does mathematically equal about 550 watts, NOT 600 watts. Meanwhile, the GTX295, which also has a 46 amp rating also does not require a 550 watt power supply, it requires a 680 watt power supply. Both have 46 amp rating, but both have different total wattage requirements WELL ABOVE 46 AMPS (550 WATTS).
Lizard ... you are cracking me up with this stuff.

Listen close ... I'm going to spell this whole thing to you one last time:

nV is recommending a 600W power supply with at least 46A on the 12V+ rail for an ENTIRE SYSTEM (gpu, cpu, board, drives, etc) that is running a GTX580 card.


And when nV makes such recommendations, they VERY MUCH take into account the fact that plenty of users are going to be buying very 'ordinary' PSU's like the Extreme Power, as opposed to Corsair and Enermax and the like.

As such, the OP's system would probably work fine on a really good 500W unit that has just a bit of headroom over the rating. Or, a 700W unit that's probably really just a 650W unit ... is also going to be fine.

The CM Extreme 700W is not a great PSU, but it's also not a sub-600W unit w/a 700W badge on it. In order for you to 'win' this debate, you need to prove that this PSU is NOT really capable of providing the 600W (and/or 46A on the 12V rail) that nV is stating as recommended for this card.

If you cannot do so, then I think you have to concede that my original point about this PSU being fully adequate for the OP's (potential) system ... is valid.

BTW, you seem to think there's some huge 'meaning' to the fact that the 295 had a different Wattage recommendation (680W) from that of the 480 and 580 (600W), while having the same 12V+ recommendation of 46A ... but guess what? nV didn't make a 12V+ amperage requirement for a system running the 295. They suggested a 680W PSU, period. Therefore the 'points' you THINK you're making in your repeated bold, red paragraphs ... are based on a false premise.
Edited by brettjv - 12/25/10 at 1:29am
    
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post #55 of 61
First of all, this is a civil discussion, not a contest. My position is that due to the fact that virtually every review I have found for power supplies by the manufacturer of his power supply have been mediocre, it is not ideal to run a 500 dollar card that he does not wish to damage. I am not saying it isn't capable of doing it, I'm just saying that were I him I would choose a unit that has a detailed and unbiased review that is fairly positive. The units I pointed out have that.

Second of all, a user in this thread has continually misrepresented my positions, distorted what I have said, and is now openly mocking me. My only concern is that moderators should note that I have not responded in kind. If this person is doing this sort of things in other threads, I do not wish to be banned along with him. I am not going to participate in a flame war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
... but guess what? nV didn't make a 12V+ amperage requirement for a system running the 295.

1) The power supply does not direct all of its power toward the 12 volt rails. It is only capable of delivering a fraction of it to the rail.

2) Different power supplies deliver different fractions of their total power to the rail. This fraction is not directly related to the total wattage.

3) Older power supplies (even 700 watt) often were only capable of delivering 30 amps to their 12 amps to the 12 volt rails. His is not one of those older models.

4) The manufacturer states above that the a 680 watt power supply with 46 amps on the 12 volt rail is recommended for the GTX295.

5) I never said the GTX295, GTX480, or GTX580 actually drew 46 amps. What I stated was that it was a safe margin that would guarantee the card would run under normal conditions.
6) As you can see 46 amps at 12 volts does not equal 600 watts as a certain person has indicated. This is why the GTX295 and the GTX580 have the same rating for the 12 volt rail, but different ratings for the total amperage. In other words, the 12 volt rail does not equal the total amperage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post


Dude ... seriously ... no offense, but nearly everything you've posted here is ... hilarious.

Nice try with the straw-man there though

Ergo, all of your claims about power consumption for the 295, 580, and 480 are comically over-inflated.

And your car analogy is really great ... for a laugh. The fastest cars in the world get like 1 mile a gallon, dude.

Lizard ... you are cracking me up with this stuff.

Listen close ... I'm going to spell this whole thing to you one last time:
?
Edited by Majestic_Lizard - 12/25/10 at 2:57am
    
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post #56 of 61
Your current cpu should do fine on GTA IV and newer games once you replace your 8800 with a GTX460 or HD5870
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post #57 of 61
btw i think they got the power recommendation from testing with a core i7 965. so yea it's pretty much adequate.
btw in that video posted above, windows 7 was running DX10 in crysis while windows XP was running DX9. big difference. also his fps is less than 20 > unplayable anyway.

btw how did this discussion about GPU turn into PSU XD
Edited by james8 - 12/25/10 at 9:25am
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post #58 of 61
Lizard, Brett's right. You need to stop posting in this thread. Telling this guy "GTX 295 uses 416 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 680 watt PSU)
GTX 480 uses about 370 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 600 watt PSU)
GTX 580 uses about 363 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 600 watt PSU)"

Is just full of fail and left me ROFL. You need to understand that reviewers aren't measuring the power used by the CARD but the entire system, from the wall, which doesn't even take efficiency into account. Of course, if you actually read any of the reviews you quoted, you would have known this already.

No PCIe card uses more than 300 watts. PERIOD.

Not these cards or any other.

80+ PSU efficiency IS in fact because people want lower electric bills, and in fact, has zero to do with ripple suppression or "clean, strong power." Just because a unit is 80+ does not mean it's a good one..

You posted so much other BS I don't even have the time or inclination to go over it all. Take a step back for a minute, and relax. It would do everyone involved a world of good. I've never seen someone rage so hard in a thread.

TO the Opening Poster:

Your Q6700 is fine for games. Your RAM is fine for games. Neither will be a "bottleneck" of -any- sort. You should overclock your CPU a bit farther, shoot for 3.4GHZ or so. I don't know jack about your particular PSU, so I can't comment on it's quality. If you want a card, I'd look at the GTX 570. If you've got the money.. then sure, stretch for the 580.

Some of you need to understand the difference between "CPU/GPU limited" and "bottleneck."
Edited by pursuinginsanity - 12/25/10 at 9:57am
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post #59 of 61

Merry Christmas!



Quote:
Originally Posted by pursuinginsanity View Post
You need to stop posting in this thread.

Is just full of fail and left me ROFL.

You posted so much other BS I don't even have the time or inclination to go over it all.
I've only asserted that if I were the OP, I would look at getting a better power supply that is substantiated by unbiased positive reviews. My only position (which I have stated politely) has been that I have been unable to find a detailed rating that tells us if it can actually do what it is advertised to be able to do. The power supply is not the part of the computer to skimp on because it can damage every other part of the computer.

I've not attacked (or raged a someone put it) on anyone in this thread. I've never said that a GTX 480, 580, etc actually draws 550 watts. I've said that 46 amps on a 12 volt rail is mathematically equivalent to 550 watts. I've also stated that different cards with 46 amp requirements can have different total amperage requirements. Someone stated that I was wrong. I proved I was not. This appears to have upset someone and, predictably, they contacted a buddy (no, that's not James8) to attack me here.

In a civil discussion when people disagree (even if someone appears to have made an error of fact), there is no reason to make immature and hostile comments like the ones quoted above. It weakens the position of the person who makes the comments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james8 View Post
btw how did this discussion about GPU turn into PSU XD
As you know, the power supply is used to power the GPU. You want to make sure you have a good power supply before you worry about upgrading your GPU. It is related. I've had cheap power supplies before that were supposed to be 700, 800, and even 1000 watt (which had screwy 12 volt rails that were split and not combined) and I want to save the OP from being in that position. His power supply is probably marginally adequate, but it's pushing it.

I've pretty much had sources to back up the statements I've made though I'm sure I have probably made some grave and confusing typos.

Here is the GTX 480 power consumption when added to an entire system (core i7 920 - 130 watt TDP):





Yet here is one site that measured its performance on a maximum load at stock speeds (guru 3). Note that it is just about at 300 watts and this is only at stock speeds:



Note that it is 280 watts (almost 300 watts). Now, imagine if you overclock the card or run a heavy benchmark application that pushes a card even further than a normal load during a game (or worse, if you did both simultaneously). It would get above 300 watts. That should be obvious. Some people are overclocking the GTX480 well above 800 MHz. When you do that, it really will draw that much power. If anything Nvidia, tested for max power draw using a CPU with a light TDP.

Nvidia (please go to their site) states that the GTX480 draws 250 watts (under my estimate), requires a 600 watt power supply, and requires 46 amps on the 12 volt rail. Many other sites put the maximum draw higher than that (as a safe measure). Again I never said that the card actually draws 550 watts. I said that 550 watts was a safe margin that guarantees that it will operate safely and that the power supply should be able to supply at least that much to the card. My position has been misrepresented, severely, and repeatedly.

Now, this is my very last post in this thread. I have focused on trying to help the OP and one individual and his buddy and/or sock puppet has focused on personally attacking me (no, I'm not referring to James8). This is not useful to anyone and it each time it has been tried it has not had the effect the individual aimed for.

Again...

Merry Christmas!

...if I hurt anyone's feelings in my posts, I do apologize.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!
Edited by Majestic_Lizard - 12/25/10 at 12:36pm
    
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post #60 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by pursuinginsanity View Post
Lizard, Brett's right. You need to stop posting in this thread. Telling this guy "GTX 295 uses 416 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 680 watt PSU)
GTX 480 uses about 370 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 600 watt PSU)
GTX 580 uses about 363 watts on a load, but has a 46 amp requirement (requires 600 watt PSU)"

Is just full of fail and left me ROFL. You need to understand that reviewers aren't measuring the power used by the CARD but the entire system, from the wall, which doesn't even take efficiency into account. Of course, if you actually read any of the reviews you quoted, you would have known this already.

No PCIe card uses more than 300 watts. PERIOD.

Not these cards or any other.

80+ PSU efficiency IS in fact because people want lower electric bills, and in fact, has zero to do with ripple suppression or "clean, strong power." Just because a unit is 80+ does not mean it's a good one..

You posted so much other BS I don't even have the time or inclination to go over it all. Take a step back for a minute, and relax. It would do everyone involved a world of good. I've never seen someone rage so hard in a thread.

TO the Opening Poster:

Your Q6700 is fine for games. Your RAM is fine for games. Neither will be a "bottleneck" of -any- sort. You should overclock your CPU a bit farther, shoot for 3.4GHZ or so. I don't know jack about your particular PSU, so I can't comment on it's quality. If you want a card, I'd look at the GTX 570. If you've got the money.. then sure, stretch for the 580.

Some of you need to understand the difference between "CPU/GPU limited" and "bottleneck."
Thank you Pursuing, for having my back on this one

Bottom-line, Lizard, as I've said repeatedly, the 46A requirement is for the whole system, as is the 600W requirement. You've repeatedly on this thread insinuated that the 46A is 'required' to provide safe headroom for the CARD ALONE. But this is wrong. The card alone is not allowed to pull >300W (25A at 12V+). The other 21A set aside in this spec is for the rest of the system.

Just so you understand, the reason that the 295 says 680W instead of 600W like the other two cards is because it came out a couple of years ago. Back then, it would have been very rare to find a 600W (total) unit that had 46A (550W) on the 12V+ rail (yes, that is 46A = 550W ... something that I've NEVER debated the accuracy of).

nV knew that many buyers back then would not be sophisticated enough to understand 12+ volt rails and total amperage, but everyone understood enough to be able to buy a '680W' PSU.

Regardless of what your GTX295 box says, the official nV spec on the website says its a 289W MAX card, and that a 680W PSU is required ... and that is all it says.

So ... back then, they said 680W so that, in the great many cases, the user would get a PSU with at least 46A on the 12V+ rail whether they meant to or not.

As time has passed by, a great many more buyers have become savvy about 12V rails and amperages + many more 600W PSU's are going to be in the neighborhood of being capable of doing 46A on the 12V rail. Therefore, they've determined that they can say 600W unit/46A 12V+ total, and feel pretty safe that the majority of people will be able to properly follow these guidelines.

All of your extrapolation that you've repeatedly done has been based on false assumptions. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is bro.
Edited by brettjv - 12/25/10 at 2:16pm
    
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