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post #11 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Ok, you are using the same key for a second pass of encyption?

Do you see the weakness there?


Using the same exact key (even if utilized differently) makes it much easier to crack something. By proving the result of the first round of decryption matches the second round, the attacker can prove the key is correct. It makes is subseptible to a meet-in-the-middle attack.
Even if the first round is never visible? I'm planning to make the switch immediately after the instert, per every bit, so there will be just 1 "round". So if the result of *only* the insertion is never visible, does it still mean it's bad to use the key twice? It's not practically "twice" it's just for two operations But on the same pass
Edited by ronnin426850 - 12/29/10 at 11:41am
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post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post
Even if the first round is never visible? I'm planning to make the switch immediately after the instert, per every bit, so there will be just 1 "round". So if the result of *only* the insertion is never visible, does it still mean it's bad to use the key twice? It's not practically "twice" it's just for two operations But on the same pass
If someone figures out the key from the first round.... second round is almost already solved as they have the key. Now they just have to figure out how to use it. If the key works for both, they can have confidence they cracked it.

Read up on meet-in-the-middle.

Also, never write out a temp file. Do it all in memory. There is no such thing as immediately. It is always after a few clock cycles. If I know where the temp file will be, I can write a script to copy contents of directory and loop it at high priority. I would be able to catch that temp file.
Edited by DuckieHo - 12/29/10 at 12:37pm
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post #13 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
If someone figures out the key from the first round.... second round is almost already solved as they have the key. Now they just have to figure out how to use it.

Read up on meet-in-the-middle.
Yes, I understood you What I meant is- there is no actual "first" round and the encrypted data comes out of the algorithm after all the encryption processes (all the "rounds" have completed). The result of the first round only exists during the actual encryption (as is the original data), it is never available to anybody..

Sorry I'm taking so much of your time I just didn't write the best of descriptions
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post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post
Yes, I understood you What I meant is- there is no actual "first" round and the encrypted data comes out of the algorithm after all the encryption processes (all the "rounds" have completed). The result of the first round only exists during the actual encryption (as is the original data), it is never available to anybody..

Sorry I'm taking so much of your time I just didn't write the best of descriptions
I see... you're safe there.

But you see the weakness of double-encryption with the same key?

Solve part 1 and you already given them the answer for part 2.
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post #15 of 24
This is essentially a modified vigenere cipher?
breaking the data into n sections and attacking each wit frequency analysis will produce the key.

Do you have the implementation in any common language? I am having trouble understanding exactly what you wish to communicate because of the way you have set it out.

Remove the concept of binary/decimal, it is insignificant.

Given a simple 8 byte key (64 bits), and a simple 16 byte message to encrypt (128 bits), explain the process. Because we have given the size in bits, the representation of the key is insignificant, you can use hexadecimal if you want, but keeping everything in binary will make things easier to follow.

Edit: while roughly implementing your algorithm, I have realized a significant challenge:
if any single byte has a value greater than the length of the message, this algorithm does nothing, you could imply a modular/matrix system to overcome this inherent limitation.
Edited by wcdolphin - 12/29/10 at 12:53pm
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post #16 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdolphin View Post
This is essentially a modified vigenere cipher?
breaking the data into n sections and attacking each wit frequency analysis will produce the key..
Hi I'm relatively new to the field, never heard of vigenere Actually the list of cyphers I know is very short How can any attack on the data produce the key, since the actual key is not stored in the final result? I mean after the final bit-shift thing? It is supposed to mess things up beyond recognition, on binary level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdolphin View Post
Do you have the implementation in any common language? I am having trouble understanding exactly what you wish to communicate because of the way you have set it out..
I have it in C#, but it's rather long and makes use of custom classes, not contained in the default library. If you still want me to post it, I will

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdolphin View Post
Remove the concept of binary/decimal, it is insignificant..
Mm.. What exactly do you mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdolphin View Post
Given a simple 8 byte key (64 bits), and a simple 16 byte message to encrypt (128 bits), explain the process. Because we have given the size in bits, the representation of the key is insignificant, you can use hexadecimal if you want, but keeping everything in binary will make things easier to follow.

Edit: while roughly implementing your algorithm, I have realized a significant challenge:
if any single byte has a value greater than the length of the message, this algorithm does nothing, you could imply a modular/matrix system to overcome this inherent limitation.
I'll prepare an example ASAP
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post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 


Whew, ok, there you go! I've attached a photo too, with all the markings, bold, color, etc. Hope it makes it clearer
Sorry, I did it with 32 bit key, cause I just don't have the human resource to manually encrypt with 64 bit key on Word

http://img526.imageshack.us/i/exampleya.png/

http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/2475/exampleya.png

EXAMPLE:
KEY: 457881530
KEY BINARY: 011011010010101011011110111010
MESSAGE: “The Vigenere cipher”
MESSAGE BINARY:
01010100011010000110010100100000010101100110100101 10011101100101011011100110010101110010011001010010 00000110001101101001011100000110100001100101011100 10

Insertion

/*
Take the first digit of the key – 4
Take the 4-th bit of the key binary – 1
Take the 4-th bit of the data binary – 0
After it, insert the bit from the key binary.

Take the second digit of the key – 5
Take the 5-th bit of the key binary – 1
Take the 5-th bit of the data binary – 1
After it, insert the bit from the key binary.

Etc.
*/

01010 1 100011 1 01000011 1 001010010 0 000001010 0 11 1 001101 1 0010 0 1 0
10011 1 101100 1 10101101 1 110011001 0 010111001 0 00 1 110010 1 1001 0 0 0
00000 1 110001 1 10110100 1 101110000 0 011010000 0 11 1 001010 1 1110 0 0 0 10

Shift

/*
Take the first bit of the key binary – 0
Take the first bit of the data binary after insertion – 0
Key bit = 0, do nothing.

Take the second bit of the key binary – 1
Take the second bit of the data binary after insertion – 1
Key bit = 1, change data bit. Data bit = 1 => Data bit = 0

Etc.
*/

0 01 1 10 1 0 00 0 1 0 0 0 0 11 0 0001 0 010 0 1 1
0 11 0 11 0 0 01 1 0 0 1 0 0 10 1 1001 0 011 1 1 1
0 10 1 00 0 0 10 1 1 0 0 0 0 01 0 0000 0 100 0 1 1
0 10 0 00 1 1 01 1 0 1 1 0 1 11 1 1001 0 011 0 1 0
0 11 1 00 0 1 01 0 1 1 1 0 0 01 0 0010 1 011 0 1 0
0 00 0 01 0 1 00 0 1 0 0 1 1 10 0 0000 0 111 1 1

Final
00111010000100001100001001001101101100011001001011 00100111110101000010110000010000001000110100001101 10110110110010011010011100010101110000000101011010 00000101000100111100000011111

Message after encryption:
Quote:
ÆmŒ–O¨X F†Ã›dÓŠÃ*+@¢x
My main idea was that in the end there is no way to know or find out which bits have been shifted, and which have remained...
Ok, I'm waiting for response THanks a lot!
Edited by ronnin426850 - 12/30/10 at 3:42am
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post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post
My main idea was that in the end there is no way to know or find out which bits have been shifted, and which have remained...
Ok, I'm waiting for response THanks a lot!
Run again with different keys.


All encryption attempt to " no way to know or find out which bits have been shifted, and which have remained".

Do you know anything about decryption? From a single set of data, it is nearly impossible to crack. However, give someone enough data and patterns may appear.
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post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Ok, I encrypted the example above with several different keys, and could not see any patters in the result. I hope that'd be good enough. Thanks to all, the algorithm will have to stand the test of time now Rep+

Any1 have an idea where can I post it for more in-depth testing? Like a forum for guys who take pride in cracking algorithms? Thanks
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post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnin426850 View Post
Ok, I encrypted the example above with several different keys, and could not see any patters in the result. I hope that'd be good enough. Thanks to all, the algorithm will have to stand the test of time now Rep+

Any1 have an idea where can I post it for more in-depth testing? Like a forum for guys who take pride in cracking algorithms? Thanks

How did you check for patterns though?

A real test would be if you gave the algorithm and a resultset to someone... and ask them to find the key.
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