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post #41 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
As soon as I get new DVDs I'm going to try Gentoo and Slackware again, enorbet has made me want to take a look at them.
Geez that can't be so, I have never recommended Gentoo to anyone I will be rather surprised if they last another 5 years unless they undergo radical change (and they might - see below) Several years ago it was becoming all the rage and on a Slackware oriented IRC channel I habituated guys were threatening to "jump ship" in droves to try this awesome new source-based distro.

I installed it too (although parallel) and I believe it was nathris who correctly characterized the install as "sodomy". What a pita! Now that would be OK to endure some pain if there was a payoff, but there was not. All the internet buzz about speed turned out to be a fail. It wasn't slow. It was just no faster. One by one all but a very few came back to Slack. IIRC two guys went Debian having been spoiled by auto-dependency convenience and quipping "All distros look pretty much the same from command line" to maintain their LeeT cred.

However since somehow a LiveCD version of Gentoo is available in the guise of Sabayon I must admit to an itch to try it out. ArrrgghHH! I am such a slut!
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post #42 of 76
I guess we should put that in the negative column for using Linux. Eventually, you will turn into a distro slut and cheat on your favorite distro for one that may be faster, better looking, easier, etc.

How Sabayon is considered Gentoo is beyond me; but I guess that's because I simply equate Gentoo to nothing but compiling programs before getting to use them. However, wasn't Gentoo supposed to be able work on just about anything because you could make changes and other things to make it run better on your hardware? Though, I can't imagine anyone but programmers being able to do that last part.
     
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post #43 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
I guess we should put that in the negative column for using Linux. Eventually, you will turn into a distro slut and cheat on your favorite distro for one that may be faster, better looking, easier, etc.
Well yeah...sorta. There is no distro faster or better looking than my favorite (they are all tweakable, just some make that like pulling teeth to dissuade newbs) and I most definitely don't want easier in terms of it doing things for me. I might look for "easier" in terms of it staying out of my way and making it easier to get to the "nuts and bolts".

No, I am easily seduced because the sorts of people that are motivated to and capable of building a distro think they have something new to offer and today that has become primarily niche markets. As such they may take a different approach to doing things nut far more often than not all it is for differences is a different and/or new version default DE and a different set of applications.

So while I used to try new distros to see how they configured things automatically and learn what the results looked like for my hardware so I could do it manually as an fuller and more specific addendum to the man pages, now mostly I want to see new versions of DEs and their features (so I can either install or steal from them) and be introduced to new apps that I can actually run and play with instead of just read about..


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
How Sabayon is considered Gentoo is beyond me; but I guess that's because I simply equate Gentoo to nothing but compiling programs before getting to use them. However, wasn't Gentoo supposed to be able work on just about anything because you could make changes and other things to make it run better on your hardware? Though, I can't imagine anyone but programmers being able to do that last part.
Absolutely agreed which is one of the reasons I want ti see it in action. Yeah it was...but it didn't... at least any more than any other distro. Programming takes place on many levels. Essentially if you write or even alter a script, many of which are nothing but batch files either specifying a set of switchable options or listing several commands to be used in sequence, you are programming. Like most thing the more you do it, the more you can do it. Once you discover the freedom and power of telling your hardware what to do instead of waiting to be asked by some wizard, a whole other level opens up.

One of the major values of running Linux, any Linux but especially the ones that don't hold your hand quite so much (or even spoon feed you), is being exposed to the possibilities for freedom in software. Programming just isn't all that hard to get started and graduate to a modest level of proficiency. Often you started before you even knew it.
This is why it is not best to stay with a "starter" distro. If you plan to stay a user all your life you might as well get a Mac. As soon as you can you should install some higher level distro even if only a parallel install because half the battle is finding out you can.

You don't even have to aspire to becoming an IT guy or a dedicated programmer. Why should you pay a mechanic exorbitant fees to check your car's computer as to why the "Check Engine" light is on if you can program your laptop to do it for free? As everything becomes digital and connected it begs the question, are you going to be just another clueless user dependent on those in the know, or are you going to be in control of your own stuff? and to what degree?

Good thread.
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post #44 of 76
Thread Starter 
Updated for Arch
    
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post #45 of 76
Needs Debian, Gentoo, and Slackware!
post #46 of 76
Debian has worked on it's meta-packages and you can actually remove most of them safely now, allowing you to trim your system nicely. Allowing you to remove all the programs you don't want. =) You are now able to customize your system completely, and it's nice because I have 3 different DE's installed! It also comes in a net install, giving you the same terminal access like Arch but with a little less configuring to do in itself. For example you don't have to edit the rc.conf to get GDM running, the package manager will do that for you. Though if you get something like XFCE you will have to edit things or get a desktop manager. I personally like Debian over Ubuntu because it's much much smaller and if you run a testing/unstable build it is more or less up to date as a rolling release. It's not nearly as up to date as something like Arch but it is generally rock solid for stability. Idk if it's because they do more solid testing on it or what, but over all it's very nice. Stuff like Wifi doesn't work if it needs 3rd party firmware, Debian doesn't believe in shipping things with proprietary software in it. The repo's have it, but you have to manually enable that/grab them yourself. I think the installer now has a selection for that but it won't install any packages from non-free unless you select them.

Currently it is in a freeze state, for the new Stable release to come, so stuff like Gnome is stuck at 2.30 and KDE at 4.4 which isn't too far behind (2.32/4.5). If you want to be daring you can put Experimental repositories in and grab from that, but do that with extreme caution: Not all Experimental packages are working, some are broken or break huge features. I found that out as one of them breaks flash. Unfortunately with the package system in Debian it's extremely hard to roll back packages, generally you get stuck until there is an update. That isn't so bad, but if you made the mistake like I did you either have to wait till they get updated in Unstable/Experimental or re-instal. That's the same with all .deb based distro's for the most part. (Edit: Generally Testing/Unstable is considered to be in fairly working condition, it's only Experimental that has extreme caution. Unstable should still be used with moderate caution but a lot of people do run a Sid based system; You might have to monitor your packages or not do system updates. This can happen in any distro though, many have been broken by system updates)

One thing about Debian/Ubuntu vs. something like Arch is space. It's possible to get the system running default on a smaller footprint if you work towards it, this is because Arch includes all of it's dev packages. In a Debian system you can remove them (if you don't plan on ever compiling code) and use the system straight off the apt and save a bunch of space. This has it's advantages and disadvantages, where you trade off building anything custom for space. If this were on a netbook with a 4G SSD it would be very handy, but it still depends on how the user wants to run the system.

[edit] Just for kicks I decided to total all the -dev files up, it saves about 185MB. That's actually not as much as I thought. =( I didn' t add in header files and other developing packages, which makes it over 250MB+ adding a bit more. I'm sure I could strip it even more, but that would be a lot of work. =(
Edited by mushroomboy - 1/10/11 at 9:49am
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post #47 of 76
Isn't aptitude capable of downgrading packages? I've done it via Synaptic in the past (which uses aptitude as its back-end).
    
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post #48 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
Isn't aptitude capable of downgrading packages? I've done it via Synaptic in the past (which uses aptitude as its back-end).
Synaptic/aptitude both use apt is the back end, the problem is when you get into dependency hell. You'll have this issue where you can't down grade because another package depends on it. It's a real awful mess at times, it works but some situations don't ever work out as nice. You can do force installs, but then it'll sometimes mark packages as broken. That gets even more annoying. =( Short answer no, long answer yes. It's just easier if you don't have to. lol

[edit] I didn't go into explaing that because it would be more of an advanced thread then. It's just easier to stick with saying that rollbacks aren't nice. If it's a small package, like lets say Firefox 4.0 beta that nothing depends on, or only a few things, it's easy. But if you are doing lets say xorg it can make things messy.
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post #49 of 76
Oh, well you didn't say you were trying to rollback half your system One thing that I like about pacman is that even though it will complain about a massive dependency problem, you can simply add the -d flag and then it will just shut up and do what you tell it to. Sure you might total your system, but at least you only have yourself to blame.
    
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post #50 of 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaiger View Post
Just get linux from scratch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZHoob2004 View Post
personally, I started out with ubuntu, then went to kubuntu, then to mint, hopped around to debian and fedora, and ended up really starting with linux when I tried arch.

something about being forced to learn it in order to get a working system really helped me get accustomed to the command line, and now I have trouble using command prompt on windows because I'm so used to the linux commands and syntax.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFB View Post
Forget it. I'll just bang my head against the desk. I've got one guy suggesting Linux from Scratch for beginners and a bunch of other people complaining I didn't mention their favorites.

So much for trying to help people.
Good Topic TFB.

i would like to add tho, even tho ubuntu is a good starter Linux, it is by no means, only limited to beginners.

i'm not a noob nor a beginner at linux, but yet i find myself not able to leave from it, since i do know the system so well.
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