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[HWC] Corsair Launching Gaming Audio Series SP2500 2.1 PC Speaker System - Page 13

post #121 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVO View Post
Man.. no matter how or who design a 4rth order bandpass box or laser cut, etc that design have a very narrow frecuency response (with high SPL on it) by itself PERIOD thats the way it is and its not a opinion..

if they sound "muddy" or not its another thing, but you cant argue about that
I was confused by your use of the term "very narrow," so I wanted to clarify one more thing. You might be thinking of bandpass subwoofers used in car audio, which do tend to have a very narrow band -- they're basically just one-note thumpers.

The SP2500's subwoofer is wide-bandwidth, low-Q design, more similar to PA gear.

As covered before, it's important not to confuse the concept with bad or or non-related uses of the concept.
post #122 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsairDylan View Post
I was confused by your use of the term "very narrow," so I wanted to clarify one more thing. You might be thinking of bandpass subwoofers used in car audio, which do tend to have a very narrow band -- they're basically just one-note thumpers.

The SP2500's subwoofer is wide-bandwidth, low-Q design, more similar to PA gear.

As covered before, it's important not to confuse the concept with bad or or non-related uses of the concept.
its not a concept man.. 4th order bandpass have a narrow frecuency response with high SPL; and by narrow i mean no more than 10hz wide

and no, i wasnt thinking in bandpass car audio boxes WICH BTW THEY ARE THE SAME


HERE read this: http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/4thorder.htm

dont get into the PR crap man, never...
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post #123 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVO View Post
its not a concept man.. 4th order bandpass have a narrow frecuency response with high SPL; and by narrow i mean no more than 10hz wide
In case you were wondering, the SP2500 frequency response is 35Hz - 20kHz (+/- 3dB) and the sub/satellite default crossover point is 140Hz. Thus, the bandwidth is 105Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVO View Post
and no, i wasnt thinking in bandpass car audio boxes WICH BTW THEY ARE THE SAME
Sorta -- same basic design, but the cheaper (often home-made or custom-made) car audio bandpass subs tend to have much narrower bandwidth than subs used in PA systems such as those used in concert halls. Acoustic bandpass filters aren't intrinsically limited to ~ 10Hz wide, but you're correct that it's often a desirable value when doing car audio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HAVO;11972343HERE read this: [url
http://www.diysubwoofers.org/bnd/4thorder.htm[/url]

dont get into the PR crap man, never...
post #124 of 142
Yes, I've heard "bass reflex" aka ported subs before, both my home theater and a pair of ProMedias I heard at a friend's house having used one.

I had also read pretty much all of what you said in the bullet points about sub-par design combined with low-quality drivers many times, so I was really put off.

So basically you're saying that the limited frequency response is actually something you guys were going for because you feel the satellites are higher quality and make up for it? You feel you actually get a better sound?

I'm very impressed by two reps being active in the community if nothing else. I know it's technically PR to sell more units, but it still speaks volumes to customer service.
Edited by Kaldari - 1/11/11 at 12:51pm
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post #125 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsairDylan View Post
That's why many 2.1 systems will sound unacceptably tinny when you turn off the sub; by comparison, the SP2500 operates as a pretty decent 2.0 system when the sub is muted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsairDylan View Post
In case you were wondering, the SP2500 frequency response is 35Hz - 20kHz (+/- 3dB) and the sub/satellite default crossover point is 140Hz. Thus, the bandwidth is 105Hz.
Those two statements contradict themselves, no? If the satellites can only play down to 140Hz, I don't think that makes it a "pretty decent" 2.0 system.

I had a set of Z5500's which supposedly have a 150Hz crossover. Movies and even some games were just not enjoyable because you could tell exactly where the bass was coming from and any semi-deep male voice would just boom out of the sub. An acceptable crossover, IMO is < 80Hz. A frequency that it seems like no computer speakers can get close to (probably due to the size of the midrange drivers needed?). Anything higher and the bass gets noticeably directional and sounds funky IMO.

Why is the crossover so high anyway? What are the satellites' -3 dB point?
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post #126 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljason8eg View Post
Those two statements contradict themselves, no? If the satellites can only play down to 140Hz, I don't think that makes it a "pretty decent" 2.0 system.
Understood. To be clear, that's the default crossover point. Remember, the SP2500 has active crossovers, with signal filtering being handled by the DSP. When put into Late Night mode, the sub is muted and the crossover drops to 100Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljason8eg View Post
I had a set of Z5500's which supposedly have a 150Hz crossover. Movies and even some games were just not enjoyable because you could tell exactly where the bass was coming from and any semi-deep male voice would just boom out of the sub. An acceptable crossover, IMO is < 80Hz. A frequency that it seems like no computer speakers can get close to (probably due to the size of the midrange drivers needed?). Anything higher and the bass gets noticeably directional and sounds funky IMO.

Why is the crossover so high anyway? What are the satellites' -3 dB point?
In broad terms, your understanding about driver size and low end is correct. I'll have to get back to you on the latter.
post #127 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldari View Post
So basically you're saying that the limited frequency response is actually something you guys were going for because you feel the satellites are higher quality and make up for it? You feel you actually get a better sound?
Not exactly. In any 2.1+ configuration, the satellites' low end and the sub's high end must be matched and be able to reach a shared crossover point, no matter what that point is. If you're going for a low crossover point on your sub, then your satellites must be designed to match. You pick a crossover point because you think it's the right point, and then figure out how to get there.

The advantages of various crossover points (there's a lot of religion here, so I won't go into it) and the use of a bandpass filter to shape the response are two distinct things. And, of course, the benefits of bandpass enclosures go well beyond the sharp cutoffs on the frequency response.

I'm not sure about the rest of your questions. Yes, the performance characteristics actually were designed that way on purpose -- that's something that can be said for virtually all professionally-designed speaker systems. And as to whether our design actually makes it sound better -- maybe I don't understand your question, but what other reason is there to do it? We're not messing around making $20 Wal-Mart speakers here.
post #128 of 142
We might as well be making $20 Wal-Mart speakers... I can guarantee you the drivers they slap into these things cost a great deal less than that.

Now consumer, how do you feel about that? If your answer is, "It's A-OK!" then congrats, you are a certified "gamer" and you can continue to hump the leg of ROG, Fatal1ty, etc.
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post #129 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsairDylan View Post
And, of course, the benefits of bandpass enclosures go well beyond the sharp cutoffs on the frequency response.
Well that's what we're aiming to learn, an explanation of the "well beyond". Since the benefits go well beyond that, what makes using the bandpass better than ported or sealed, which are known to be tighter and more accurate? I know you're defending the bandpass by saying you guys engineered the hell out of it, as opposed to others who conventionally use badly designed enclosures and bad drivers, but that isn't really getting to the heart of why you guys went with it over the alternatives, which are also much smaller to boot (not that size is a determining factor for me).

That's a run-on sentence, if there ever was one.

The only thing I've seen is that you guys paid more attention to the crossover point better than other manufacturers who use ported subs. That speaks more to lack of attention to detail by those engineers than to the tech of a ported sub itself, assuming that statement is even accurate.
Edited by Kaldari - 1/11/11 at 2:54pm
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post #130 of 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldari View Post
Well that's what we're aiming to learn, an explanation of the "well beyond". Since the benefits go well beyond that, what makes using the bandpass better than ported or sealed, which are known to be tighter and more accurate? I know you're defending the bandpass by saying you guys engineered the hell out of it, as opposed to others who conventionally use badly designed enclosures and bad drivers, but that isn't really getting to the heart of why you guys went with it over the alternatives, which are also much smaller to boot (not that size is a determining factor for me).
As covered earlier, lower distortion (A big problem with lots of the high-power 2.1 systems in this category) and better transient response. These are super-important things to pay attention to. See my original reply for more details. If you're not sure why a well-engineered bandpass system generates less distortion or has better transient response and my original post wasn't clear enough, let me know.

You're correct that there are many ported and sealed subwoofers that are designed better than many bandpass systems, but the opposite is also true. It's a matter of using the right tool for the job. You're also correct that there are some very strong opinions in the field of enclosure design. If by "are known to be" you meant "many people consider them to be" then you're 100% spot-on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldari View Post
The only thing I've seen is that you guys paid more attention to the crossover point better than other manufacturers who use ported subs. That speaks more to lack of attention to detail by the engineers than to the tech of a ported sub itself, assuming that statement is even accurate.
I stated that our team sweated the details here; they did so because a well-designed crossover is key to reference speaker implementation, and the SP2500 design employs a lot of techniques used in reference monitors. I wouldn't say that there's a lack of attention to detail by other manufacturers in the category, or on lower-priced PC speaker systems. It's all about the goals that you have in mind. If you're going for low cost, you might want to use a bass reflex sub, a higher crossover point, and full-range drivers. But it's still going to take work to design that system, too.
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