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post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
I think enorbet must have had some really traumatic experience with repositories in the past.

While there is some truth to what he said, the problem is very rare. Saying that auto-dependency based distros have such problems is like saying Windows gets viruses. The only distro that has issues is Ubuntu, because they like to rename everything and modify core packages, but like I said before, I don't really consider it Linux anymore.

The amount of time it takes to fix any dependency issues is around 1/100th the time it takes to manually manage every last dependency a piece of software has.
Not to get on you but the buntus are not as terrible as you guys make them out to be. You just have a greater knowledge of terminal usage along with scripts most likely and therefore think that the GUI easy way of doing things given by the buntu's is an affront to Linux as a whole. It's not. And the while I've only tried two out of the four main ones I will say that default Ubuntu has been the most problematic for me. As soon as I used Kubuntu my problems went from major headaches caused by things that didn't make sense to minor annoyances. The big thing to keep in mind with repo based dsitros is to avoid adding or changing the repo list as much as possible. I'm not sure that holds true for Arch (pacman sounds like god with the way people talk about it here, and yes i'm interested in it) but with the buntus, fedora, and openSUSE you really need to be careful with the repos.
Also, if I recall correctly Slackware has a "package manager" and that should mean that when you head off into the /install or make realm that it should spot out what the package needs, right? At least from my experience in all other distros I've tried this occurred.

Finally, I too experienced a sort of repo/dependency hell with both openSUSE and Kubuntu. But like I said this was for the most part due to screwing with the repos to much myself. Only on two occasions did I suffer because the GUI and CLI package managers went to war or the distro had a bad update (most commonly due to a kernel issue).

@OP: I hate saying this since I still feel like I didn't try enough with it, but avoid Fedora unless you can get someone to actively help you on it. There's another user on here who like me has noticed how slow it is compared to other distros. I thought it was my netbook but the other user is experiencing the same slowness on a hexa-core with 12 threads. Also, Fedora like the buntus does not allow you to during install choose what is and isn't installed. openSUSE and Slackware both allow this thus giving you a "cleaner cut".

If you're looking for something "difficult" that puts you in control then it comes down to whether you want repos getting things for you (Arch) or doing things yourself (Slackware). At least that's how it comes across to me. I've tried both and Slackware is more forgiving in the fact that you will have a DE included along with packages whereas Arch starts you off with nothing but a CLI to get each package you ask it to fetch.

Hope I'm close with all of that and that it helps.
     
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post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post



Basically, if you want to learn Linux, stay away from Ubuntu. They've messed up so much stuff that I hesitate to even call it Linux anymore. It would be like saying "I want to learn FreeBSD, so I'm going to go check out OSX"
What I ment was there not even the same comparison. You can't use Ubuntu and then take that bad experience and slap talk Debian. Yes I understand the sans part, but calling it bull**** is what I was referring to. Debian is on a completely different level and philosophy than Ubuntu with a much more stable base as well as having the ability to be extremely bleeding edge. Where Ubuntu can be bleeding edge you don't get near the stability with it. as enorbet says it's like comparing apples to oranges.

I'm also tired of everybody talking about Arch as if it is on some special level above dependency based distro's. So far I've used it for a month or more and haven't found anything more or less special about it. The only thing I've learned is mucking with the AUR which is only an Arch specific thing. I already learned dependency stuff with Debian managing Stable/Testing/Unstable. So far it's just the philosophy that's changed, which I can appreciate for what it is but no more difficult than any other Net Install system out there.
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post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
What I ment was there not even the same comparison. You can't use Ubuntu and then take that bad experience and slap talk Debian. Yes I understand the sans part, but calling it bull**** is what I was referring to.
Sans-bull**** = Without bull****. I have nothing against Debian. Both Ubuntu and Debian are outdated compared to Arch, but at least Debian isn't hell bent on becoming the poor man's OSX like Ubuntu is.

I won't even touch Ubuntu after seeing how badly they've mangled Gnome, and they are moving to Unity with 11.04. Unity isn't really all that bad, aside from being totally anti-linux. There are parts of Unity I like, but there are more that are just poorly thought out or poorly implemented. I put UNR on my mother's netbook, but it ran worse than Windows 7 so I switched Unity for Xfce.
    
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post #14 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
The only distro that has issues is Ubuntu, because they like to rename everything and modify core packages, but like I said before, I don't really consider it Linux anymore.
I have found that like Windows, Ubuntu is rather easy to break. While breaking then fixing things, is a learning experience for me, something a little more resilient would be nice. I am not talking PEBKAC issues here, these are things that I (for the most part, anyway) do on purpose to force me to dive into things to learn how they work and how to manage them.

Quote:
The amount of time it takes to fix any dependency issues is around 1/100th the time it takes to manually manage every last dependency a piece of software has.
Hence one of the reasons that I am not ready to cut free from the repositories and package managers yet. Also I do learn from both manual cli and seeing which dependencies work together through the managers. I still have not resolved my TRIM issues, so that tells you that I still am needing work on familiarity with how the file system works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
Not to get on you but the buntus are not as terrible as you guys make them out to be. You just have a greater knowledge of terminal usage along with scripts most likely and therefore think that the GUI easy way of doing things given by the buntu's is an affront to Linux as a whole. It's not.
I see Ubuntu as the Vista of Linux . While easier and prettier than XP, it is not necessarily better. The real question here is will Ubuntu transform from Vista to Windows 7 /analogies.

Basically what I am saying here is that even though Vista and 7 are basically the same, it may just not be at the time where they can make it operate like they want it to right now to give people the feeling of 7. I realise that Linux is Linux and throwing crap on Linux from two different angles is still throwing crap on it, but who really knows how things will turn up down the road if they can things integrated better.


Quote:
@OP: I hate saying this since I still feel like I didn't try enough with it, but avoid Fedora unless you can get someone to actively help you on it. There's another user on here who like me has noticed how slow it is compared to other distros. I thought it was my netbook but the other user is experiencing the same slowness on a hexa-core with 12 threads. Also, Fedora like the buntus does not allow you to during install choose what is and isn't installed. openSUSE and Slackware both allow this thus giving you a "cleaner cut".
With having multiple computers, I will have the internet to guide me through any snags at any time I need it. Slow is annoying, but not a show stopper. I can still learn from it and just use another distro as my main OS instead.

I like the idea of SUSE custom install because I have done a lot of custom Win ISO's in the past, so that one is definitely on my to try list and compiling the whole thing from source is still very far off for me, so that seems to fit right into things right now.

Quote:
If you're looking for something "difficult" that puts you in control then it comes down to whether you want repos getting things for you (Arch) or doing things yourself (Slackware). At least that's how it comes across to me. I've tried both and Slackware is more forgiving in the fact that you will have a DE included along with packages whereas Arch starts you off with nothing but a CLI to get each package you ask it to fetch.
From what I get here so far, that with most distros, you can create your own difficulty by just using cli and opting out of the integrated tools that assist in installation ans set up.

Another reason for wanting to try new distros is that I am in a tweaking , testing zone right now, so I am constantly formatting and reinstalling anyway, so why not try some new ones while I am at it.

There really is no wrong recommendation here as it will get reinstalled or replaced soon anyway, though I would like to avoid a full cli only distro for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
I'm also tired of everybody talking about Arch as if it is on some special level above dependency based distro's. So far I've used it for a month or more and haven't found anything more or less special about it. The only thing I've learned is mucking with the AUR which is only an Arch specific thing. I already learned dependency stuff with Debian managing Stable/Testing/Unstable. So far it's just the philosophy that's changed, which I can appreciate for what it is but no more difficult than any other Net Install system out there.
Different philosophies sounds like it could add a new angle of learning, so I will put it on the to do list as well.

Basically I have decided to go with Mint as my main and then SUSE or ARCH as my first other distro to try out with it. Others will follow later. Which has the better boot loader, so I can install it last ?

The discussions in this thread have been really helpful and have answered a lot of questions that I have not even got around to asking yet.
post #15 of 24
I would like to recommend pclos,it sounds like just what you are looking for.Gnome,or kde version would be great.It's an awesome alternative to ubuntu.
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post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
I think enorbet must have had some really traumatic experience with repositories in the past.
In many ways this is a fair assessment as I have indeed had really bad experiences with repositories. Despite my allegiance to Slackware I have always paralleled it with some dependency resolving distro(s) to "keep my hand in play:. If I stick with relatively safe ones they don't have what I want and/or when I want it. If I "poison the pond" with unsafe repositories, things start breaking and often avalanche.

That would be acceptable if I could also install from source or run a generic installer as in nVidia;s proprietary driver without consequences. You may get away with veering from the official path for awhile but what amounts to corruption adds up and sooner or later (and it is worse when it happens in long term degrees as it is harder to chase down) the spaghetti code reaches a breaking point if you continue to "stray".

I grant you that my experience started when auto dependency resolving was in it;s infancy and that it has gotten some better. However "better" just means it takes a little longer to reach the tipping point. This is not guesswork as I also have experience with many recent distros.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
While there is some truth to what he said, the problem is very rare. Saying that auto-dependency based distros have such problems is like saying Windows gets viruses. The only distro that has issues is Ubuntu, because they like to rename everything and modify core packages, but like I said before, I don't really consider it Linux anymore.
Exactly! Windows DOES get viruses and auto dependency resolving distros DO break if at the very least are at risk if you cross some ill defined, fuzzy line. Even though I don;t like where the *Buntus are headed, I can hardly write it off as not being Linux anymore since it is at most a variation on a theme. Linux is a kernel and *Buntus still use it. It's just dumbed down and more corrupted than most in the name of convenience.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
The amount of time it takes to fix any dependency issues is around 1/100th the time it takes to manually manage every last dependency a piece of software has.
All of this depends entirely on what you use your computer for, If you install Ubuntu for your parents who do nothing but surf the web, do email, upload photos from their camera (in most cases) and play Solitaire then they are safe even with Ubuntu. However all it takes is some new application or hardware they want that the repository doesn't have and likely won't have for a year or more (or even ever) and the spaghetti and corruption begins.

If you think in terms of only the present, you're fooled into thinking all is well. When you take the longview and realize you will still be using your system 1, 5, or 10 years from now things begin to look a little different. Recently there appeared a thread here in which the parents still have Win98 on a 12 year old computer and while this may be extreme it is proof of concept. At some point people tend to settle in or have too much else on their plate that matters more and you just need to be able to depend on what you've invested so much in while being able to adapt to new things.

There are only three choices

1) Accept that you can't have this new application or that new driver

2) Get it and take the risk

3) Do it yourself and get the new app, driver or whatever without any risk but a little time and effort that gets easier and faster every time you do it.

You can't have all three at the same time as they are mutually exclusive. Choose wisely.
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post #17 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by djsi38t View Post
I would like to recommend pclos,it sounds like just what you are looking for.Gnome,or kde version would be great.It's an awesome alternative to ubuntu.
Their KDE looks just like Win 7. After Mint, I am going to try the E-17 and see how it compares to Mint for myself.
post #18 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Sans-bull**** = Without bull****. I have nothing against Debian. Both Ubuntu and Debian are outdated compared to Arch, but at least Debian isn't hell bent on becoming the poor man's OSX like Ubuntu is.

I won't even touch Ubuntu after seeing how badly they've mangled Gnome, and they are moving to Unity with 11.04. Unity isn't really all that bad, aside from being totally anti-linux. There are parts of Unity I like, but there are more that are just poorly thought out or poorly implemented. I put UNR on my mother's netbook, but it ran worse than Windows 7 so I switched Unity for Xfce.
The only reason is because arch is a rolling release distro, aside that Debian isn't that far behind. Ubuntu isn't even that far behind in packages and system stuff. If you use lucid/natty mixed repositories you can get a pretty stable system with the new kernel and everything. I just don't like Ubuntu because it's rather bloated. I can boot debian into a 200MB footprint. Currently I've also found that the memory leaks I was finding have all but stopped in Debian compared to arch, another down side to a rolling release. In fact my FF4 memory use has more than been cut in half and my total memory use just now goes to 500MB. In Arch I'd be booting into 200MB memory and as soon as I run FF it with a couple tabs it instantly goes to 500MB. It might be bleeding edge, and might run smooth, but so far I've found memory problems which means stuff isn't optimized like it should be. Either that or some arch patches are messing with things. There's other problems I've found as well. I think Arch has promis but won't ever go anywhere crazy. All you get is up to date software that seems to be poorly configured. When I was running Arch I couldn't even download KDE or Gnome and build from their own source, I had to use the bins, which was another problem I found. For a rolling release it is pretty good, and extremely easy to configure, but I'm not sure it's worth the current down sides.
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post #19 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by enorbet2 View Post
Exactly! Windows DOES get viruses and auto dependency resolving distros DO break if at the very least are at risk if you cross some ill defined, fuzzy line. Even though I don;t like where the *Buntus are headed, I can hardly write it off as not being Linux anymore since it is at most a variation on a theme. Linux is a kernel and *Buntus still use it. It's just dumbed down and more corrupted than most in the name of convenience.
Linux gets viruses too you know.

The point is, 1:10000 vs 1:1000000 isn't really any different.

The only time I ever have issues installing software is if I'm grabbing Ubuntu stuff off of AUR, since the packages need their own version of pretty much everything.

I think of Ubuntu more as a Linux-based distro rather than an actual Linux distro. Canonical just prefers to go its own way. It will modify packages, and as mushroomboy alluded to, fix bugs, but rarely will they ever contribute anything back.

Linux distros for the most part are just collections of preconfigured community packages. IE, Arch uses Gnome, so does Debian. Both distros will for the most part leave it to the actual Gnome developers to manage their software. Ubuntu is developing Unity, which is designed specifically for Ubuntu and nothing else (even though you can technically get it for other distros, its a real pain)

What it all boils down to is that developers are going to start having to release builds that work in normal Linux distros, and ones that specifically work with Ubuntu, and at that point we really have to draw the line.
    
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post #20 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Linux gets viruses too you know.

The point is, 1:10000 vs 1:1000000 isn't really any different.

The only time I ever have issues installing software is if I'm grabbing Ubuntu stuff off of AUR, since the packages need their own version of pretty much everything.

I think of Ubuntu more as a Linux-based distro rather than an actual Linux distro. Canonical just prefers to go its own way. It will modify packages, and as mushroomboy alluded to, fix bugs, but rarely will they ever contribute anything back.

Linux distros for the most part are just collections of preconfigured community packages. IE, Arch uses Gnome, so does Debian. Both distros will for the most part leave it to the actual Gnome developers to manage their software. Ubuntu is developing Unity, which is designed specifically for Ubuntu and nothing else (even though you can technically get it for other distros, its a real pain)

What it all boils down to is that developers are going to start having to release builds that work in normal Linux distros, and ones that specifically work with Ubuntu, and at that point we really have to draw the line.
Well that's not entirely true. You can build sources of other programs from scratch, but it's hard to use Ubuntu based code from scratch. Take RPM vs Deb... While you can convert (most) RPM > DEB, there's a huge difference in how they format versions and the packages themselves. RH has extra folder configurations that aren't normally there, or at least Debian doesn't have them (I've never converted RPM to anything else, and I rarely do it as it is), and that's no different then Ubuntu. Not to mention those Ubuntu packages probably have Ubuntu patches, which were written for Ubuntu based off their libs which also have specific patches made.

I do agree that Ubuntu gives nothing back. They should let the rest of the community use any of their patches that contribute well, no matter what distro you have. Unfortunately they don't. But then again, how many distro's share specific patches? I don't see Debian patches being used in RH/Fedora, nor do I see openSUSE packages. I'd include Slackware but then I'd have to go find some patches. lol Thing is, all distro's have their own custom code, Ubuntu just takes already used source and modifies it. If you want the advantages you can either wait for the main source to be updated or use Ubuntu, that's no different than anywhere else and has been like this for a long long time.

[edit]

I'd like to point out that they release all the patch files, so the code IS there. If you want to make your own AUR packges with these patches, fix the dependency problems, then you can do so at your own time and cost. Unless you want to do so I wouldn't complain about it, don't ask for something if you aren't willing to do the work. Even though Linux is free, the people who make the code have their own things to be done.
Edited by mushroomboy - 1/2/11 at 7:44pm
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
FX-8350 4.6GHz@1.44v GA-990FXA-UD3 R4.0 HD 7950 (1100/1450) 8G Muskin DDR3 1866@8CLS 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
1TB WD LiteOn DVD-RW DL Linux/Windows 19" Phillips TV 1080p 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
OCZ 600W Generic Junk Logitech MX400 Generic Junk 
Audio
SBL 5.1 
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