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[Believe3D] 3D TV among the biggest tech failures in 2010 - Page 7

post #61 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephasteus View Post
NO HE'S NOT VERY WRONG. HE'S not even A LITTLE BIT WRONG. HE'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

Let me give you an example. Take a snake. Put it in a refigerator for an hour. Let it out when it's temp hits about 40 degrees. Now. Walk around the snake. The snake will only SEE you about one time every 1/2 second. You could literally play hide and go seek with it by disappearing in between when it's able to see you. You can simulate this in a game. Play any game with your video card super declocked and cpu super declocked until you get down to 2 frames a second. That's EXACTLY the experience the snake is having at those body temps.

Now go to the opposite end of the spectrum. Hummingbirds do not see other hummingbirds like we see them. They can actually see each others wings flapping. We can't we have to take high speed video which is about 120 to 250 or higher frames per second and slow it down to where our BRAIN can process it before we can have their experience.

So as I said. He's the opposite of wrong here. He is RIGHT. And you can logically figure this out just by watching high speed videos on youtube. So go experiment and verify for yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
This exactly. This is why your typical films are only 24.xx frames per second. Do you see anything choppy in movies? No. When it comes to gaming, 23fps is horrible due to the latency between your GPU/other components as well as the API I assume?
Humans eyes don't see in frames per second. Our senses cannot be analyzed like a computer program.

And FYI there are no high speed videos on Youtube. Youtube automatically degrades the quality if a video moves too fast.
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post #62 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Well I retract, but to kindly prod your rude opening line, I did say I was only assuming what I meant in my example.
I apologize. I'm just really really tired of the ignorant people posting misinformation.

It just boggles my mind how people can claim one can't see over 60fps - yet they don't even have hardware capable of rendering over 60fps.

EDIT: There are hordes of competitive gamers using "3D ready" panels for 2D @ 120hz. Even among non-tech savvy friends, basically everyone who touches my computer asks why the cursor looks choppy on my 2493HM (60hz) when they swing it across from the 2233RZ...
Edited by i_hax - 1/3/11 at 2:25pm
    
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post #63 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsEggrollTime View Post
Humans eyes don't see in frames per second. Our senses cannot be analyzed like a computer program.

And FYI there are no high speed videos on Youtube. Youtube automatically degrades the quality if a video moves too fast.
He meant videos captured with extremely high frame rate cameras, like this one. I think what he wanted to say is "Why can't our eyes see these water droplets/sparks like we see them in the video? Obviously it's because we CAN'T see anything that is going that fast." We need to film it with a ridiculous (300+ fps) video camera and then slow it down to a ~30fps (or however much) video that we can enjoy.


Edited by Stealth Pyros - 1/3/11 at 2:25pm
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post #64 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
"Why can't our eyes see these water droplets/sparks like we see them in the video? Obviously it's because we CAN'T see anything that is going that fast."
...but that's flawed. Even if you take a video at 30fps and slow it down, you'll notice more detail. It has nothing to do with frame rate. All it shows is that our ability to see detail increases with exposure time... and I don't think anyone is going to debate that.
    
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post #65 of 126
Just saw TRON: Legacy in IMAX 3D a couple of days ago and it really wasn't all that amazing, more of a waste of money. Most of the scenes were either in 2D or the 3D was so subtle I couldn't tell. Some scenes even seemed blurry probably because my eyes had a hard time focusing. My friend also encountered the same blurriness, luckily she didn't experience any of the headaches I had after the movie. The big screen of the IMAX itself was cool, but they can keep the 3D.

Now if 3D wasn't worth it in the movie theater, what makes it worth it to bring into my home. It has limited content, everything about it is expensive, and I have to wear an extra pair of electronic glasses over my own? But wait it gives me headaches as well! Sounds like I'm sold. /s

I mean the quality of the 3D and it's content right now doesn't make up for the problems it has with cost and comfort for most people.
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post #66 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
He meant videos captured with extremely high frame rate cameras, like this one. I think what he wanted to say is "Why can't our eyes see these water droplets/sparks like we see them in the video? Obviously it's because we CAN'T see anything that is going that fast."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MX6aerxQPOs
Fair enough, but the point still stands that we do not see in terms of FPS. Cameras and human vision cannot be directly compared.

Furthermore, we CAN see things like water droplets and hummingbird wings. Normal people can do so on Amphetamines. Athletes can after years of training (see baseball/tennis players). Bipolar individuals can during manic episodes, and heroes can with a burst of adrenaline.

Your brain has more to do with vision than your eyes, and the human brain is not limited to specific boundaries like machines. It can learn and adapt.
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post #67 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsEggrollTime View Post
Fair enough, but the point still stands that we do not see in terms of FPS. Cameras and human vision cannot be directly compared.

Furthermore, we CAN see things like water droplets and hummingbird wings. Normal people can do so on Amphetamines. Athletes can after years of training (see baseball/tennis players). Bipolar individuals can during manic episodes, and heroes can with a burst of adrenaline.

Your brain has more to do with vision than your eyes, and the human brain is not limited to specific boundaries like machines. It can learn and adapt.
Yes you are right. You can have nervous responses that do increase your ability to see in great detail at high frame rates. But it can only last 6 seconds. Because it's all chemical and it's like the difference between your aerobic system and your anearobic system. You can use great amounts of energy for a short burst but you can't maintain them. Visual "sprinting" doesn't have anything to do with games as you'd have to use drugs to maintain it and live with a "crash" from it.
I haxed is being very confident because he's wrong. And he's bluffing.
You're eyes don't work like a camera they use different chemical processes but they are completely similar processes. And that stupid moving dot thing doesn't mean anything. All it does is show 2 pong paddles at 30 fps 4 pong paddles at 60 fps and 8 pong paddles at 90 fps and 16 pong paddles at 120 frames per second. That's because it's BLURRING out your eyes as it's swamped with filling in the missing data that you can't SEE. It's got nothing to do with smoothness. The smoothness is purely generated by the HUMAN who perceives that way as it registers through the various pathways.
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post #68 of 126
I wouldnt call 3D a failure really...not yet anyway. It just hasnt taken off yet. Kinda like bluray when it first came out.

The initial round of 3D sets are prohibitively expensive for a lot of people (read, a vast majority). Not to mention tons of people have already upgraded to regular LCD or Plasma sets. Does the industry expect them to toss their 1-3 year old, perfectly fine LCDs for a 3D compatible one?

It's going to take more than one year of availability to determine if 3D is a failure. Give a couple more. More market penetration, more availability, cheaper sets, and the most important piece of all - content.


I consider Google TV to be the biggest tech flop of the year personally. That's just an utter waste. Just my $0.02.
 
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post #69 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hephasteus View Post
All it does is show 2 pong paddles at 30 fps 4 pong paddles at 60 fps and 8 pong paddles at 90 fps and 16 pong paddles at 120 frames per second. That's because it's BLURRING out your eyes as it's swamped with filling in the missing data that you can't SEE. It's got nothing to do with smoothness. The smoothness is purely generated by the HUMAN who perceives that way as it registers through the various pathways.
I had to read that a bunch of times. I don't think you even understand what it's showing - it's ONE bar moving left/right at the selected speed, rendered at 30/60/90/120fps. There are no multiple bars/'pong paddles'. You may be seeing more due to your LCD's response time being too low but on a CRT it'll display just one per frame.

Also, it doesn't really matter how your brain interprets it - if it appears smoother at a higher frame rate, given you have hardware to render it, how can you argue a person can not see over that fps?

EDIT: I just feel like you're pulling numbers out of a hat. Earlier you claim the framerate cats can see (also snakes) and then spout something about humans 'operate in the 200 ms range'. Where are you getting these numbers? Where did you get 6 seconds for a nervous response changing ability to see detail at speed? 200ms would be a humans average reaction time - but again, it's got nothing to do with frame rate.
Edited by i_hax - 1/3/11 at 3:39pm
    
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post #70 of 126
Quote:
Originally Posted by i_hax View Post
I had to read that a bunch of times. I don't think you even understand what it's showing - it's ONE bar moving left/right at the selected speed, rendered at 30/60/90/120fps. There are no multiple bars/'pong paddles'. You may be seeing more due to your LCD's response time being too low but on a CRT it'll display just one per frame.

Also, it doesn't really matter how your brain interprets it - if it appears smoother at a higher frame rate, given you have hardware to render it, how can you argue a person can not see over that fps?

EDIT: I just feel like you're pulling numbers out of a hat. Earlier you claim the framerate cats can see (also snakes) and then spout something about humans 'operate in the 200 ms range'. Where are you getting these numbers? Where did you get 6 seconds for a nervous response changing ability to see detail at speed? 200ms would be a humans average reaction time - but again, it's got nothing to do with frame rate.
I don't pull numbers out of hats. We've had good understandings of biology and neurobiology since the 70's. Sorry if you haven't spent 6 or 7 years studying it so you can understand how it works. I have.
That response is the most simple fight or flight adrenaline dump that the human body goes through. It's well known by everyone that it lasts about 6 seconds in the nervous system. What isn't known is that you don't OWN your body and you have another nervous system that can act antagonistically towards it. This can result in fear freeze and you can see a mild severely antagonistic example of it in fainting goats. Where the goats conciousness is permanantely and always antagonistic to it's host body.
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