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[Tom's Hardware] Mac OS X is the Most Dangerous OS - Page 5

post #41 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
Even if you get patches every half year, it doesn't stop it from being far more secure than Windows just simply because of the way the kernel works.

I swear, Microsoft must recruit programmers from the local special school with some of the decisions they make...
How does the Kernel work?
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post #42 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by -iceblade^ View Post
that's interesting considering how they keep saying it's safe.
Agreed, Jobs old statement that you don't need AV on a Mac always seemed very unwise to me. His fanboys hang on his every word and will believe that stuff, even if it advocates less safe behavior. Is the risk of a virus on a Mac less than on Windows? Sure, probably significantly less...but it's not zero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleslikejohn View Post
I don't understand why Apple has to dumb down everything for their customers. It seems like everyone's doing it nowadays.
I don't understand why people that dislike Apple assume that something is being "dumbed down". Interfaces that hide the junk that almost nobody cares about is NOT dumbing anything down, it is streamlining. How exactly is it "dumbing down" that every app on a Mac is essentially auto-integrated with every other app? That increases your productivity...but is it "dumbed down" that I don't have to launch iTunes separately when I'm working in iMovie?

I swear...if some of you were around back at the time, you would be complaining that the introduction of automatic transmissions was dumbing down our cars. Real drivers use standard shifts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8-Ball View Post
Where are the Apple fan boys?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Invisible Penguin View Post
Patching their little white money sinks?
Hey! Where are the brand new OCNers acting like snide little children? Oh, there they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Epitope View Post
OSX isn't really that dumbed down. It has a built in tcsh terminal. You can do all sorts of hardcore computer nerdy things in the terminal. It's just all simple and polished on the surface for everyday users.
Thank you. Some of my most hardcore employees do all of their "real work" on a Mac precisely because of the Unix underpinnings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
You really can't get a virus on OSX - OSX does not execute arbitrarily downloaded code. All applications need to be installed, either by installing a package, or by using the installer, or by using something like Vise. All applications require the user to Agree to the install, to permit sudo to allow the setting of the eXecute flag - the exact same scenario that *Nix systems have.
That's basically the same as Windows UAC though, right? The problem is that Average Joe Clueless (or quite often, Average Joe Teenager Using Dad's Computer) doesn't always think about what he's installing. Hey, a free game! That's not a virus, I meant to download and install that!

(You touch on some of that, but I don't think most people delve into the subtleties of the different types of malware...it's all a "virus" to most people, and in most conversations I find it easier to just equate "virus" to "all malware".)

Quote:
Of course, 600 MB "updates" simply show that OSX suffers from a great deal of bloat, and that the system itself has become very unstable and requires massive updates to keep it running.
I think the issue there is just the infrequency of the updates, no? If they did monthly updates, I doubt they would be anywhere near 600MB.
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post #43 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post
You've said this before yet really it is a mistake to not update your windows install. A lot of people have the misconception that they will slow down their system or take up drive space.

The reality is that nearly all updates are overwriting existing files, so you don't take up significantly more disc space and that most updates are just patching security vulnerabilities while others are adding support for new technology/standards or else improving performance or bug fixes.

You may not have had any malware that you know of so far but it is never advisable to forgo all Windows Updates. You gain nothing by doing so, there are only negatives to the practice.
Updates have been known to bring new bugs into a system, you gain nothing from updating either, I'd personally rather have the bandwidth spare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BizzareRide View Post
How does the Kernel work?
Windows lets anything run straight off the bat, Unix based OS' require you to say the downloaded script is an application first. (Hence the chmod +x /path/to/file command)
    
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post #44 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
That's basically the same as Windows UAC though, right? The problem is that Average Joe Clueless (or quite often, Average Joe Teenager Using Dad's Computer) doesn't always think about what he's installing. Hey, a free game! That's not a virus, I meant to download and install that!

(You touch on some of that, but I don't think most people delve into the subtleties of the different types of malware...it's all a "virus" to most people, and in most conversations I find it easier to just equate "virus" to "all malware".)
No. It's nothing like UAC. I love Windows but the underlining system is terrible. On *nix systems things have to be flagged for execution. You have to have correct permissions to even it flag it to be executed. On Windows a .exe or .com or .bat can always, no matter what, be executed. I used a Mac for a little over 6 months and it was terrible. I'm a Windows fan but I'll be the first to point out it's horrendous architecture.

I've said it before I would be glad to pay $30 - $50 for a fully operational Windows DE for Linux or BSD.

edit: Brutuz beat me to the execution explanation.
    
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post #45 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
I swear...if some of you were around back at the time, you would be complaining that the introduction of automatic transmissions was dumbing down our cars. Real drivers use standard shifts...
I was around back then and I still agree completely. Real drivers (men) use shifts. It wasn't any different now than it was back then. Shift FTW
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post #46 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by turtleslikejohn View Post
I don't understand why Apple has to dumb down everything for their customers. It seems like everyone's doing it nowadays.
Some people like things to be kept simple, just like how car manufacturers have automatic gearboxes.

Infact, it's exactly like that.
post #47 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by VulcanDragon View Post
That's basically the same as Windows UAC though, right? The problem is that Average Joe Clueless (or quite often, Average Joe Teenager Using Dad's Computer) doesn't always think about what he's installing. Hey, a free game! That's not a virus, I meant to download and install that!

(You touch on some of that, but I don't think most people delve into the subtleties of the different types of malware...it's all a "virus" to most people, and in most conversations I find it easier to just equate "virus" to "all malware".)
No - Windows UAC is an add on level that has to intercept problems before they arise.

OSX (and *nix) have a very simple mechanism. Each file on their file system has a series of flags: Read, Write, eXecute - in four broad categories, for System, Owner, Group and World. The ability to run an executable file is dependent upon the granting of the eXecute flag. The mechanism is simple, nothing that is downloaded is ever given the eXecute flag - a separate OS level program is required to set this flag, and requires user intervention - through Agreeing for the installer to do it's thing, or to run the Package installer, or to run a program like Vise that can use sudo to eXecute the program.

Windows (and DOS) on the other hand, carry the ability to eXecute solely in the file name extension (.COM, .EXE, .BAT, .DLL). Thus, any download becomes entirely dangerous, and deficiencies in UAC (of it is even used) will entirely allow the system to run these files without user intervention.

There is also a deeper story behind this. The programmers at MS felt that they could not support all possible formats, and made available within the system the ability for programs to go out and "grab snippets" of code. The idea was that if they didn't support JPG, lets say, a program could simply go out and grab the code needed and run it. Thus, providing a convenience to the user - a convenience that the more macho *nix users didn't need because they would just add the required tool themselves. But this convenience, coupled with the inherent ability to eXecute held solely in the file name - lead to a great proliferation of viruses, trojans and so on.

A further step was the demand users apparently made for things to be "automatic". Stick in a CD - it starts playing music, stick in a program disk - it starts running an application. This openness and convenience entirely allows for stuff like root kits and other forms of malware - and is inherent in Windows, while most *nix users would be loathe to use such "weak, absent minded" features.

In essence, a *nix system is entirely open to virus downloads - just like a Windows system, but the difference is that on an *nix system, it is just a file gobbling up some space in the downloads folder - while on Windows, it can set out and destroy stuff. MS has attempted to change this on a number of occasions, all with massive complaints - from all of the crass remarks about "it can't run anything" under ME, to the woefully annoying messages trotted out far too often by Vista.

And you're right - people do not make - everything to them is a "virus", just like they paint a broad number of people as "hackers", even though in essence, it is a spectrum of different people engaged in different activities. By definition, a hacker is simply someone who operates a computer without having gone through formal schooling and training, or the hardware hackers, like those that abound on OCN, that fiddle and overclock their machines without an engineering degree or documentation - while it is the Crackers that are up into the wee hours engaging in DDoS attacks on The Man.

Quote:
I think the issue there is just the infrequency of the updates, no? If they did monthly updates, I doubt they would be anywhere near 600MB.
Knowing Apple - they are rolling in updates for non-OS software, like iTunes or whatever, forcing the latest and most brain damaged versions down everyone's throats. They are also fairly pro at including software you don't want in their updates - like the iPodHelper file I used to get when I bothered with iTunes, or the people that got stiffed with Safari when they just wanted iTunes.
post #48 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Knowing Apple - they are rolling in updates for non-OS software, like iTunes or whatever, forcing the latest and most brain damaged versions down everyone's throats. They are also fairly pro at including software you don't want in their updates - like the iPodHelper file I used to get when I bothered with iTunes, or the people that got stiffed with Safari when they just wanted iTunes.
Well iTunes, Java updates, Safari, etc come as separate packages from the Software update. They can easily be hidden and never updated. In fact that's what I did for Safari when I used a Mac.

The software update from 10.6.4 to 10.6.5 is like 600mb. That's just system updates. Nothing else. The update from 10.6.0 to 10.6.5 is almost a 1gb.

And yes I know these numbers off the top of my head. I work macs at work and actively participate in the hackintosh community. Even though I really don't like MacOSX, I do like the architecture it's based on. The more I delve into it, the more I like the way the system is setup. It's really the UI that's so bad. And mouse movement.
Edited by dham - 1/4/11 at 7:24am
    
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post #49 of 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by -iceblade^ View Post
that's interesting considering how they keep saying it's safe.
Might be harder if more people rather hack windows instead.

It's like saying more ford focus' get broken into compared to ferrarris. One just sells a lot more.
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post #50 of 84
Don't most hackers prefer hacking macs? I mean they're always the first ones hacked at contests but I figured the user would have even less of a chance noticing somethings wrong with the mac after it's been hacked.
     
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