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[Examiner] GeoHot releases PS3 key, asks for job from console makers - Page 13

post #121 of 179
To be honest it probably took so long to find this mistake because most hackers through Sony wouldnt be that stupid.

I cant wait to hear Sonys response to this.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post

The modding movement toward the PS3 was quite heavy before hand. And, infact, Other OS actually made the PS3 more vulnerable as Geohot proved. So if anything, the fact that something like this wasn't figured out and revealed before hand is even worse.
My understanding was that because of the OtherOS feature, there were plenty of work arounds to getting homebrew software on the system, so there wasnt really a massive need to gain full control of the console. Once they removed this feature, Sony basically threw down a challenge

"ok so you've exploited this...we'll take it away...wha'cha gonna do now?"

As most people know, hackers love a challenge.
Edited by Mach 5 - 1/6/11 at 3:30am
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post #122 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Yes, but you have no point of reference. You can't say this took too long or this was really quick. You could argue this hack was amazingly fast if you consider how long it would take via brute force. I don't believe any other console has been broken at this level.

Decryption isn't a linear relationship with man-hours. Someone might get lucky and break something in a week. ...or it might take decades. Even if the relative difficultly of the cipher are similar.
What do you mean I have no point of reference?
The PS3 came out in 2006. It's 2011 now. Regardless of how long they actually started on it, it's taken 5 years for them to get anywhere significant with it.
It just happens to be that this one significant thing is actually really significant and completely/utterly stupid of Sony.

Quote:
Again, I use the example of Kryptos. It sits next to the CIA cafeteria and hasn't been solved after 20 years. The world's best cryptanalysts and hackers sit by it every day.... yet, they still can't solve it.
Again, I don't see what that has to do with consoles like the 360, Wii, PSP, DS, ect having anything to do with that and why you keep bringing it up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
This is complete and utter control over the OS, the 360 only has that with JTAG...And nowhere near this amount of control, unless Sony completely rewrites the kernels encryption (i.e. MASSIVE update), this means that every single firmware released for the PS3 will be able to be altered straight away, the PSP never even came this close to this amount of control.

And if a car has a problem with the brakes, but no-one finds it out for 50 years...It's still a fail on the behalf of the car company.
Actually, with a 360 JTAG you do have total control over the OS. The only thing you can't is go online or modify online content or MS will catch you because it's like lighting a flare up during a pitch black night. Other than that, you can do whatever your little heart desires to the 360 OS. You can change it practically entirely over. I would know considering I have two.

Chances are, Sony could do the same thing if it comes down to targeting modified code online except more people will get away with it because it's signed and the console itself won't throw up a red flag.
The same could be compared to the 360's Gamerscore stuff. You can modify the 360's gamerscore and the 360 can't tell the difference. It might as well have been MS themselves who gave you the achievements. But MS can anyway if they happen to look in your direction. That I also know about, considering I've ran into a problem with that as well.

Again, I repeat for like the 50th time since the first post - yes: Sony did screw up majorly. No one here is denying this as far as I can tell out of the 3 concurrent "arguments" going. Though, in the end, it does matter the amount of time because Sony has gotten away with it for this 5 years now. How does that not matter at all? By this point, it means everything because Sony has effectively avoided homebrew and more importantly piracy for all that time. You can't downplay that. You just can't. So everyone can continue to sling crap at them for the stupidity that is their math, it doesn't change what Sony has gotten away with though in the end and that no one found it until now.

The only reason the PSP was not far more popular than what it turned out to be was because of homebrew and the piracy that it attracted with it. Developers didn't profit anywhere near as much as they could've. Sale numbers just weren't there.
Had they found this back when the PS3 did come out, 5 years ago, this would be a very similar story. Game sales for the PS3 would be horrid, developers would be afraid to develop for yet alone port games to it, it would be an utter disaster.
5 years clean simply CANNOT be discredited in anyway no matter how stupid the eventual mistake is found out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach 5 View Post
My understanding was that because of the OtherOS feature, there were plenty of work arounds to getting homebrew software on the system, so there wasnt really a massive need to gain full control of the console. Once they removed this feature, Sony basically threw down a challenge

"ok so you've exploited this...we'll take it away...wha'cha gonna do now?"

As most people know, hackers love a challenge.
No one actually released a full method of putting homebrew on the PS3 through Other OS aside from the guys who made the USB dev keys because they found out about the dev code.
GeoHot had it, but never released it and Sony jumped all over both of them.

Prior to that, there was a large crowd trying to hack the PS3. Why everyone seems to think otherwise is beyond me. There was tons of effort put into trying to break this outdated black brick of hardware long before Other OS was removed. And the stir of popularity created out of the hoax PS3 hacks that looked legit were pretty large too if you go around looking at homebrew/jailbreak forums and such.
Hell - there are several emulators available for the PS3 already using Bluray-Java mods. Very limited but you can play Mario on your PS3 (or any bluray player for that matter but it all came from the PS3 first).

Sure the removal of Other OS boosted the effort to cracking it, but people are acting and even saying that there was no effort prior to it which is 100% untrue/false/unfounded.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 1/6/11 at 11:26am
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post #123 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
What do you mean I have no point of reference?
The PS3 came out in 2006. It's 2011 now. Regardless of how long they actually started on it, it's taken 5 years for them to get anywhere significant with it.
It just happens to be that this one significant thing is actually really significant and completely/utterly stupid of Sony.
You commented how long it took hackers to discover this flaw: "Fact doesn't change that Sony's stupid mistake still took how long for everyone to figure out."

How are you qualify "long"? How are you deciding it is a long time to discover this flaw? You are comparing to other consoles... but other consoles don't have this flaw. Other consoles don't have this level of weakness.

If you said.... "It took hackers 5 years to really crack the PS3 and that is a long time compared to other consoles." That would be ok.

However, you are saying that 5 years to discover THIS flaw is a long time. Discovering such a flaw is not simple. If they had used brute force, it would have taken decades to discover this flaw. One could argue that they discovered this flaw so quickly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
Again, I don't see what that has to do with consoles like the 360, Wii, PSP, DS, ect having anything to do with that and why you keep bringing it up.
"Decryption isn't a linear relationship with man-hours. Someone might get lucky and break something in a week. ...or it might take decades. Even if the relative difficultly of the cipher are similar."

I am trying to explain to you about decryption. Again, how are you capable of judging if it took a long time to discover this flaw?
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post #124 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
You commented how long it took hackers to discover this flaw: "Fact doesn't change that Sony's stupid mistake still took how long for everyone to figure out."

How are you qualify "long"? How are you deciding it is a long time to discover this flaw? You are comparing to other consoles... but other consoles don't have this flaw. Other consoles don't have this level of weakness.
How many times must I repeat the same things over?
Since launch!
Quote:
The PS3 came out in 2006. It's 2011 now. Regardless of how long they actually started on it, it's taken 5 years for them to get anywhere significant with it.
It just happens to be that this one significant thing is actually really significant and completely/utterly stupid of Sony.
Them being the modding community, not just failflow or whatever they're called.

Quote:
If you said.... "It took hackers 5 years to really crack the PS3 and that is a long time compared to other consoles." That would be ok.
...
That is what Im talking about.

Since launch, just like everything under the sun in the technology industry now it seems, is attempted to be modded, hacked into, jailbroken, yadda yadda.
People didn't ignore the PS3 and it wasn't some special case where no one attempted it.

YOU yourself asked the question
"people in the world have been trying to hack the PS3 and the hours spent slaving over this"
"have been trying to hack the PS3"
"have been"

They have been for 5 years.

Quote:
However, you are saying that 5 years to discover THIS flaw is a long time. Discovering such a flaw is not simple.
Actually, according to them - it is SUPER SIMPLE. You said it yourself.
It's the same constant in EVERY signature key. It's an epic fail.
So are you defending Sony now just to argue with me or what's going on here?

I'm agreeing with what was said from the very first post - ENTERPRISE's post really.
It took the hacking community 5 years to break the PS3.
Sony got away with it for that long. None of the other hardware I've mentioned has done that.

Quote:
"Decryption isn't a linear relationship with man-hours. Someone might get lucky and break something in a week. ...or it might take decades. Even if the relative difficultly of the cipher are similar."

Again, how are you capable of judging if it took a long time to discover this flaw?

Again.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 1/6/11 at 11:47am
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post #125 of 179
How ironic, a 13 page thread argument over a console on a PC elitist forum.
post #126 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz Here View Post
How ironic, a 13 page thread argument over a console on a PC elitist forum.
And god bless it because it seems like every console thread turns into a pc argument. It's a first time this has stayed on track in awhile.
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post #127 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
Actually, according to them - it is SUPER SIMPLE. You said it yourself.
It's the same constant in EVERY signature key. It's an epic fail.
So are you defending Sony now just to argue with me or what's going on here?
... please, please, please go back and read.

1) The same constant is used to generate every key. The same constant is NOT in the every key. This is a major difference. Every key is different.

Here is an simplified example of the process of key generation and what happened:
Code:
 
 
I give you the number 2310 and say this is the signature to a piece of offical software.  From what you said, it seems like you think every 4-digit signature contains the number "3" but it doesn't.
 
Then I ask you how to determine how I came up with that number. Would you be able to do it? 
 
How about if you know part of the keys are 7, 3, and 11?
7 * 3 * 11 * X * Y = 2310
 
Would you be able to determine how 2310 was generated?
 
How about if I said X = 5? (This is where Sony messed up.)
 
Would you be able to solve for Y now?
Now do the same thing but:
1) the signature is 128-bits long
2) every type of mathematical operation can be used
3) multiple steps of operations can be used

Solving this is NOT trivial. If you think coming up with this crack is simple, you should apply for the NSA as they would make you their top cracker instantly. You should also go around to universities and tell hundreds of mathematicans and computer scientists that they are wasting their lives because you are smarter than them. Decryption is obsecenly hard..... if it wasn't, it wouldn't work.


I am trying to educate you and explain that you do not have enough understanding of the topic to judge others. I can't simplify it any lower.... really. If is beyond your understanding of cryptology, so be it. [Disclaimer: I have taken only about 10 formal class hours on the topic but I do outside reading and have a computer forensic friend.]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillz Here View Post
How ironic, a 13 page thread argument over a console on a PC elitist forum.
Who's talking about a console? I'm talking about computer science.
Edited by DuckieHo - 1/6/11 at 12:25pm
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post #128 of 179
personally, I find it ironic that the "most secure" console was actually the least secure.

The team that released the flaw only began working on cracking the PS3 because OtherOS was removed and only began a few months ago. Since they had only been working for a few months, it could be said that the elapse time for the crack was only a few months.

Even if viewed as "it took four years to crack", it is still cause for stockholders to lose faith in Sony's ability to produce piracy-free (locked down) platforms when Sony can't ensure that the most basic cryptographic part of the security system can be properly implemented. It can easily be said that Sony was "just lucky" that it wasn't seen (or looked for) sooner.


@Omega
Nov '06 to Nov '10 is 4 years. This makes the total time 4 years and 2 months give or take a few days.
post #129 of 179
Omega, I agree with you here man. This is definitely both a lose and a win on SONY's part because it allowed them to be in complete control of their product for nearly 5 years. This meant that nobody could lay their hands on their code and in the run down of things, you had to buy what SONY sold you. There was no other alternative.

Developers loved a system like that, it was stable, secure and profiting. Which is why the PS3 stayed alive despite of the slow crawl in game development. People were not able to pirate the games, they were forced to buy the content.

Now how this was done, or how long it took doesn't really matter anymore. The device is going to enter a new stage just like the XBOX 360 did at the time the JTAG hack was published. I own a JTAG'd X360 and I use it as a Media Center (I don't play the games, I'm a PC gamer). SONY is going to have to deal with this very carefully or they will risk losing chunks of Market share.

Maybe its time for a new generation?
post #130 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
Attacking grammar: The sign someone has no arguments left over, but doesn't want to lose face.
This would hold true, if I actually attacked his grammar.

The way I see it is, a correlation between "fails". The bigger fail the security is, the bigger fail the hackers were for taking so long.

I know, this linear man-hour BS I keep reading over and over, it doesn't change a thing. Seeing something as fail is a relative term anyway. It took a long time to breach PS3 security, so calling it "epic fail" is calling the hackers involved "epic fail". I really don't know how I can make this more clear... I mean, I've taken the time to actually fully read the posts directed toward my comments, unlike most of you... I've actually thought through everything that has been said, and I still stand by what I said because it makes just as much logical sense.
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