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[Examiner] GeoHot releases PS3 key, asks for job from console makers - Page 14

post #131 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
This would hold true, if I actually attacked his grammar.

The way I see it is, a correlation between "fails". The bigger fail the security is, the bigger fail the hackers were for taking so long.

I know, this linear man-hour BS I keep reading over and over, it doesn't change a thing. Seeing something as fail is a relative term anyway. It took a long time to breach PS3 security, so calling it "epic fail" is calling the hackers involved "epic fail". I really don't know how I can make this more clear... I mean, I've taken the time to actually fully read the posts directed toward my comments, unlike most of you... I've actually thought through everything that has been said, and I still stand by what I said because it makes just as much logical sense.
What makes you qualified to call the hackers epic fail for taking a few years though?

What's the Big O notation for the encryption? If you don't know what this is, you have no basis on determining the speed of cracking compared to the results.

Your statement of "The bigger fail the security is, the bigger fail the hackers were for taking so long" is similarly baseless. The time to solve such a puzzle can't be just measured simply by comparing it to other consoles' weaknesses. You make a judgement on how it takes to crack a cipher. How are you determining the strength of a cipher and time to crack? Note, I am commenting about this particular encryption weakness. This is not about all the other methods used to crack other consoles.


I would call it epic success since overall hacker only took 4 years. I would further more call it ultra mega epic success since it took this particular group less than a year to crack it.


How long is the key? 128-bit? If so, it would take a computer 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to test all the keys so only average it would take only 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. So 1 or 4 years depending how you want to count it is still better than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.


I have numbers to prove my position with this particular crack. What proof do you have on your stance on this particular crack? Anything objective and better than "because other consoles have been cracked through different means and with different results"?
Edited by DuckieHo - 1/6/11 at 2:17pm
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post #132 of 179

First of all, DuckieHo... stop being a moderator so I can +rep you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post
The thing that needs repeating is that before the OtherOS removal, it was just Geohot and a small community working on the PS3. Most people had written it off and given up until Sony got the bright idea of removing Linux. That really got the Linux community hot and bothered.
Some people don't think that is true. And even if they do not think it is there are many other points that make it apparent that Sony failed and the hackers did not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
The way I see it is, a correlation between "fails". The bigger fail the security is, the bigger fail the hackers were for taking so long.
O....M......G.......
Quote:
I know, this linear man-hour BS I keep reading over and over, it doesn't change a thing. Seeing something as fail is a relative term anyway. It took a long time to breach PS3 security, so calling it "epic fail" is calling the hackers involved "epic fail".
You are hopeless... LOL
It has been explained 50x over and you are just writing it off saying it is "relative".


Also:
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/06/p...es-piracy-not/
Quote:
Well, that didn't take long! Just one week after hacking collective (and chr0nic misspellers) fail0verflow revealed a hack that delivered the PS3's private cryptography key on a platter, another hacker going by the MoNiKeR "KaKaRoToKS" has taken the next step, delivering tools that will convert your plain ol' vanilla PS3 firmware (yup, even the latest security-minded 3.55 patch) into a fancy new custom firmware. One capable of running signed and encrypted executable .PKG files ... not unlike the ones that Sony itself uses to distribute PSN games. But this custom firmware isn't all about piracy. KaKaRoToKS writes, "Since the kernel is left unmodified, this means that this custom firmware is really meant for future homebrew installation, and it will not allow piracy. I plan on keeping it that way." We suspect that myriad other, less scrupulous hackers don't share that sentiment. If you want an "Install Package Files" option the Game section of your XMB, PS3-hacks.com has a guide just for you. Peep a video of a custom firmware installation after the break.
Regardless of the above argument... Success has been proven.


Edited by Drizzt5 - 1/6/11 at 2:57pm
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post #133 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drizzt5 View Post
O....M......G.......

You are hopeless... LOL
It has been explained 50x over and you are just writing it off saying it is "relative".
O....M......G.......
You are useless... LOL
Saying something is fail is relative, and an opinion mmk


@DuckieHo, I understand completely what you are saying, literally.
Though, I still feel as though they should have cracked it faster if the security was indeed "epic fail". Yes, it is a flawed system. Yes Sony messed up. Though, it is as if you are disregarding the fact that the"epic fail" security managed to hold them off for as long as they did... Then again, you got me at:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo
How long is the key? 128-bit? If so, it would take a computer 2,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to test all the keys so only average it would take only 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years. So 1 or 4 years depending how you want to count it is still better than 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years.
Still, it is a relative term. Relative to a group of hackers cracking a code a computer would take millenniums to do, the hackers didn't fail. Relative to time taken to crack other consoles despite the major security flaw, hackers did fail.
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post #134 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Still, it is a relative term. Relative to a group of hackers cracking a code a computer would take millenniums to do, the hackers didn't fail. Relative to time taken to crack other consoles despite the major security flaw, hackers did fail.
At this point someone in the thread has already said it a couple of times so...
response:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
This is complete and utter control over the OS, the 360 only has that with JTAG...And nowhere near this amount of control, unless Sony completely rewrites the kernels encryption (i.e. MASSIVE update), this means that every single firmware released for the PS3 will be able to be altered straight away, the PSP never even came this close to this amount of control.
Also, in the video I just posted the guy can go online all day and sony will never know and can't ban him. Unlike the 360.
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post #135 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
Actually, with a 360 JTAG you do have total control over the OS. The only thing you can't is go online or modify online content or MS will catch you because it's like lighting a flare up during a pitch black night. Other than that, you can do whatever your little heart desires to the 360 OS. You can change it practically entirely over. I would know considering I have two.

Chances are, Sony could do the same thing if it comes down to targeting modified code online except more people will get away with it because it's signed and the console itself won't throw up a red flag.
The same could be compared to the 360's Gamerscore stuff. You can modify the 360's gamerscore and the 360 can't tell the difference. It might as well have been MS themselves who gave you the achievements. But MS can anyway if they happen to look in your direction. That I also know about, considering I've ran into a problem with that as well.

Again, I repeat for like the 50th time since the first post - yes: Sony did screw up majorly. No one here is denying this as far as I can tell out of the 3 concurrent "arguments" going. Though, in the end, it does matter the amount of time because Sony has gotten away with it for this 5 years now. How does that not matter at all? By this point, it means everything because Sony has effectively avoided homebrew and more importantly piracy for all that time. You can't downplay that. You just can't. So everyone can continue to sling crap at them for the stupidity that is their math, it doesn't change what Sony has gotten away with though in the end and that no one found it until now.

The only reason the PSP was not far more popular than what it turned out to be was because of homebrew and the piracy that it attracted with it. Developers didn't profit anywhere near as much as they could've. Sale numbers just weren't there.
Had they found this back when the PS3 did come out, 5 years ago, this would be a very similar story. Game sales for the PS3 would be horrid, developers would be afraid to develop for yet alone port games to it, it would be an utter disaster.
5 years clean simply CANNOT be discredited in anyway no matter how stupid the eventual mistake is found out.

Compare how many consoles you can do the JTAG to, compared to this? Any PS3 can be hacked now, but you need a 360 that has an older version...The PS3 hackers have gotten a LOT more than the 360 hackers did.
And as has been said, the people hacking to get full control of the console was relatively small before OtherOS was removed...Yes, there were people hacking, they hacked to gain control of the RSX in OtherOS and quite a few didn't really hack to gain control of the firmware/to enable game backing up, this has been said.

Yes, there was effort to hack it...But that effort was concentrated in other areas, it's like saying "This new racing car sucks because it isn't comfortable to sit in, but they've just installed new seats that should be more comfy" Yes, that may be true...But its because efforts were concentrated elsewhere until recently.

This has busted the PS3 more open than say, Linux or GNU, the 360, PSP, PS2, etc all pretty much had an exploit found in older hardware that was then used to replace files to make more exploits to then make it open...This means that the PS3 will always be crackable too, Sony would have to potentially break a lot of games, files, etc to fix it.

It's the same as Sandy Bridge vs Nehalem, the performance increase isn't massive due to Intel concentrating more on bringing the rest of the platform up to scratch. (Eg. The IGP, boards, etc)
    
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post #136 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Still, it is a relative term. Relative to a group of hackers cracking a code a computer would take millenniums to do, the hackers didn't fail. Relative to time taken to crack other consoles despite the major security flaw, hackers did fail.
Which other console do hackers have complete access to... via software? Anyone can sign a package now... no special hardware or tricks. Just sign and install. How long will it be until this is possible on the XBox or Wii? The hackers accomplish something that still isn't possible on other consoles. The clock is still running on them (and probably will never be solved until we get quantum computers).

How many hackers before them looked at cracking signing? When you hack, there are an infinite number of approaches. Do you attack encryption chips via acid and probes? Is there a programmable port open? Is there a point in the software process where there is plain text? You can't say they fail because they didn't find this major security flaw sooner. With nearly infinite ways of hacking, they managed to find a good topic and got lucky. As with most hacking, it is a lot of trial and error. What I am saying again... if you have no experience with hacking or code breaking, who are you to make a judgment on another's achievement? Again, you can comment on much longer it took to break the PS3 security but you do not have the knowledge to criticize this specific hack.


Here's another real-world hacking case.... the DNS Cache Poisoning. This variant of the flaw in DNS was only discovered 2-3 years ago. DNS has been around for about 25 years and a hacker discovered this massive flaw. Would you say all hackers have "epic fail" for not discovering this flaw sooner? You can be sure hackers have been probing DNS for decades.

Read here: http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/...urrentPage=all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Though, I still feel as though they should have cracked it faster if the security was indeed "epic fail". Yes, it is a flawed system. Yes Sony messed up. Though, it is as if you are disregarding the fact that the"epic fail" security managed to hold them off for as long as they did...
What you feel is irrelevant... Do you know what the Big O Notion for the encryption is? With this flaw, it becomes a laughable O(n). It's like getting presented with a huuuuuuuuge math problem.... and then finding it out it reduces to 1+1=2. How would you know it reduced to 2 if you don't do all the work? If I found this flaw, I would be like "nooooo way!" and quadruple check the results... then call up 10 buddies to have them confirm.... then check again. It's a like taking a Geometry final and having the only question be like "How many sides are there on a triangle?".

Like I had stated above, there are infinite approaches to hacking. How do you know which one is fruitful until you actually succeed?
Edited by DuckieHo - 1/6/11 at 7:41pm
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post #137 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
O....M......G.......
You are useless... LOL
Saying something is fail is relative, and an opinion mmk


@DuckieHo, I understand completely what you are saying, literally.
Though, I still feel as though they should have cracked it faster if the security was indeed "epic fail".
Yes, it is a flawed system. Yes Sony messed up. Though, it is as if you are disregarding the fact that the"epic fail" security managed to hold them off for as long as they did... Then again, you got me at:

Still, it is a relative term. Relative to a group of hackers cracking a code a computer would take millenniums to do, the hackers didn't fail. Relative to time taken to crack other consoles despite the major security flaw, hackers did fail.
No other system has been this fully cracked via software only. Thus it could be said that the 360 and Wii have yet to be completely cracked (which would make the PS3 the first to be cracked). One major reason why no other system has been hacked on this level is because this system is the only one to make this big of an error.
post #138 of 179
Like I've always said to people, computers are like Lego, they aren't hard or complicated, you just have to snap them together right. In all honestly, you guys have proved by point excellently with your ridiculous (to say the least) posts and those sig rigs underneath them.

My only real question is, DuckieHo, why are you wasting your time?

You can teach a man to fish, but you can't make him eat it you know.
    
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post #139 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peroxide View Post
Like I've always said to people, computers are like Lego, they aren't hard or complicated, you just have to snap them together right. In all honestly, you guys have proved by point excellently with your ridiculous (to say the least) posts and those sig rigs underneath them.

My only real question is, DuckieHo, why are you wasting your time?

You can teach a man to fish, but you can't make him eat it you know.
I hope others understand....

I know I sound condescending sometimes... but I don't know how else to present information. My approach has always been.... here are the facts, these are my reasons, lets discuss.
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post #140 of 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
I hope others understand....

I know I sound condescending sometimes... but I don't know how else to present information. My approach has always been.... here are the facts, these are my reasons, lets discuss.
Just so you know, the first line of my post was not pertaining to you.

I do agree though, I enjoy a good debate as much as the next person, but I've heard better arguments or rebuttal from brick walls.

I certainly commend you for your patience and persistence though.
    
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