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which pump is powerful? - Page 3

post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by PulkPull View Post
Forgive me for my ignorance. How does the pressure at 1 gpm rate the relative power of a pump. Wouldn't the relative power of a pump relate to what loop it is going into. A pump with lots of head would be powerful for a restrictive loop, yet a pump with high flow would be good for a free flowing loop.
Because after 1.0 GPM temperature gains are minimal, in the range of 0.3-0.5C. This is because below 1.0 GPM the flow of coolant in your waterblocks starts to switch from turbulent flow to laminar flow, which severely hurts temperatures.



As you can see the gains by increasing your flow rate past 1.0 GPM are around 0.3C - 0.5C. If you have a low restrictive loop go with a weak pump as it will use less power and dump less heat into the loop.
Edited by charliehorse55 - 1/5/11 at 5:11pm
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post #22 of 31
FYI,

Play around with some options in the flow rate estimator. If you get 1GPM or better, you're good.

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...et-v1-7-a.html

There is quite a variety of restriction between different blocks these days, that I'd hate to make a broad one pump fits all recommendation.

You can even get down to .9GPM in flow without much of a loss, but you start running into problems with getting air bled out of a system when you get way down there.

I have a pile of pumps in the estimator, but I don't have the newer MCP35X or DDC 3.25 series pumps. They are a touch stronger than the old DDC3.2 pumps.

I tend to over pump a bit, but really it depends on the setup.

Generally pretty hard to screw up on flow rate though...generally not going to amount to much than a couple of degrees at most. The bigger question is usually reliability/noise/convenience/cost/space.

I have heard of a few of the Rasa pumps failing as of late, so I'm not quite sure what to think. Could just be an increased number of users, but I also worry about pump vibration noise. That's where a standalone pump is superior. You can allow it to float freely on a piece of foam or gel stuff and completely eliminate any vibration>noise transfer.
Edited by Martinm210 - 1/5/11 at 5:16pm
    
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post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliehorse55 View Post
Because after 1.0 GPM temperature gains are minimal, in the range of 0.3-0.5C. This is because below 1.0 GPM the flow of coolant in your waterblocks starts to switch from turbulent flow to laminar flow, which severely hurts temperatures.



As you can see the gains by increasing your flow rate past 1.0 GPM are around 0.3C - 0.5C. If you have a low restrictive loop go with a weak pump as it will use less power and dump less heat into the loop.
Thanks, that graph is very informative.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martinm210
FYI,

Play around with some options in the flow rate estimator. If you get 1GPM or better, you're good.

http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...et-v1-7-a.html

There is quite a variety of restriction between different blocks these days, that I'd hate to make a broad one pump fits all recommendation.

You can even get down to .9GPM in flow without much of a loss, but you start running into problems with getting air bled out of a system when you get way down there.

I have a pile of pumps in the estimator, but I don't have the newer MCP35X or DDC 3.25 series pumps. They are a touch stronger than the old DDC3.2 pumps.

I tend to over pump a bit, but really it depends on the setup.

Generally pretty hard to screw up on flow rate though...generally not going to amount to much than a couple of degrees at most. The bigger question is usually reliability/noise/convenience/cost/space.

I have heard of a few of the Rasa pumps failing as of late, so I'm not quite sure what to think. Could just be an increased number of users, but I also worry about pump vibration noise. That's where a standalone pump is superior. You can allow it to float freely on a piece of foam or gel stuff and completely eliminate any vibration>noise transfer.
Thanks for all your hard work martin.
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post #24 of 31
D5/MCP655 are solid pumps- I use one in my rig. That said, I haven't tried the XSPC 750, so I don't know if it's more powerful or not.
post #25 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliehorse55 View Post
That was because he was using an Apogee GT, which is incredibly dependent on flow rates due to it's bad design. Newer CPU blocks will not be affected nearly as much by higher flow rates as the GT was. Additionally he ran the 350's loop with 3/8" ID Tubing vs. the 1/2" ID on the 655. While tubing size doesn't make very much difference, it illustrates how their testing methodology didn't lock down every variable possible, thus making their results inconclusive. Also, with an aftermarket top the performance of the pump is increased by about 40%.
Dude, tubing size most certainly makes a difference. Here is a derivation of the D'arcy equation as it would apply to a pipe:

h = (f*L*V^2)/(2*D*g), where:

h - head loss due to friction in the pipe
f - friction coefficient
L - pipe length
v - velocity
D - internal pipe diameter
g - acceleration of gravity

If the coefficient of friction is really small, diameter matters less. Of course, as velocity (function of volume) of flow increases, diameter matters much, much more. Yes, you must manipulate units and the coefficient must be measured to actually make this useful, but the presentation is the theoretical importance of diameter. Rho (viscosity) is covered by f for a given system, and g is necessary for head pressure, which is what our pumps are rated in. There are more factors at play, but the point I want to make is that diameter can't be dismissed completely. The other advantage to diameter is increased system volume.

Now, pressure and flow volume are two different things. They are also inseperable. High flow volume is desirable for a thermally-equilibrated system, such that the temperature of the coolant at any given point in the system is similar. Low volume works as well; it is a different school of thought though. With a low flow volume system, the deltas across any given component are larger. Cooling efficiency at the radiator is improved due to T(in) >> T(ambient air), but the slow-and-low system loses when other components are added to the loop after the first. Pressure is simply the resistance in a system, so more stuff means more pressure is needed to get flow at a given rate. Current consensus is for high flow, since most people are cooling multiple components compared to a few years ago.

D5 rated at 70 watts... efficiency held constant, higher watts means more work done by the pump.

Normalizing pump pressure for 1.0gpm 12v (or any other unit representative of an actual system- if this unit is not representative of your system, another unit needs to be used) is a good way of comparing pumps if you are trying to figure out how you are going to build your system.

[QUOTE=Martinm210;11905109]
I tend to over pump a bit[\\QUOTE]
Good policy! Btw, if you are Martin of Liquid Labs fame, I better stop typing and let you cover it...

Fun stuff. Go wet or go home!
     
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post #26 of 31
Tubbing size matters very little a like half to 1c differnce and it was tested by cathar on xtremesystems.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=147767
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post #27 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZeusBoltThrower View Post
Dude, tubing size most certainly makes a difference. Here is a derivation of the D'arcy equation as it would apply to a pipe:

h = (f*L*V^2)/(2*D*g), where:

h - head loss due to friction in the pipe
f - friction coefficient
L - pipe length
v - velocity
D - internal pipe diameter
g - acceleration of gravity

If the coefficient of friction is really small, diameter matters less. Of course, as velocity (function of volume) of flow increases, diameter matters much, much more. Yes, you must manipulate units and the coefficient must be measured to actually make this useful, but the presentation is the theoretical importance of diameter. Rho (viscosity) is covered by f for a given system, and g is necessary for head pressure, which is what our pumps are rated in. There are more factors at play, but the point I want to make is that diameter can't be dismissed completely. The other advantage to diameter is increased system volume.

Now, pressure and flow volume are two different things. They are also inseperable. High flow volume is desirable for a thermally-equilibrated system, such that the temperature of the coolant at any given point in the system is similar. Low volume works as well; it is a different school of thought though. With a low flow volume system, the deltas across any given component are larger. Cooling efficiency at the radiator is improved due to T(in) >> T(ambient air), but the slow-and-low system loses when other components are added to the loop after the first. Pressure is simply the resistance in a system, so more stuff means more pressure is needed to get flow at a given rate. Current consensus is for high flow, since most people are cooling multiple components compared to a few years ago.

D5 rated at 70 watts... efficiency held constant, higher watts means more work done by the pump.
While I understand that tubing size has a large impact on the amount of water that can flow through it, the tubes used in PC watercooling are very large. Since both 3/8" ID and 1/2" ID tubes are overkill for the amount of flow, the difference between them is negligible.

The Laing D5 is a 24w pump, don't know where you got the 70w figure from.
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post #28 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bal3Wolf View Post
Tubbing size matters very little a like half to 1c differnce and it was tested by cathar on xtremesystems.

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/...d.php?t=147767
Interesting read, but according to that very report, the pressure head at 5LPM with 1/4" tubing is exactly 3x higher than the same flow rate with 1/2" tubing on their test setup! Dropping the constants form D'arcy, P=V^2/(2D) is still closer to their tests than "negligible" is as far as flow goes. My system has 17' of 1/2" tubing. Downsizing to 1/4" would have a huge impact on pressure and flow if nothing else is changed. Higher flow reduces hot spots in the system as a whole, and, since I don't have a rad between each block, my temps read at the on-die sensors would most certainly change. The 1C Cathar found would probably be different for me, but I've got a more complicated system. The tubing size remains a factor that cannot be ignored as having no effect. I won't dismiss Cathar's results, but it's not a closed-box experiment, no more than the variance in actual use is. None of this would really matter unless one needed to determine the absolute minimum required to build a system. I advocate the bigger hammer, so this is just pencil games and tire-kicking anyway, right?

My bad on the wattage for the D5. That'll teach me to do data entry at work on the right-hand screen while dallying in forums on left. Quality Assurance would have my head if 24W ended up on a CofA.
     
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post #29 of 31
Sure if you switched to 1/4" you would have problems - however if you look at that graph you can see the difference between 3/8", 7/16" and 1/2" ID is very, very low. Those are the most common tubing sizes on the market today, and the flow difference between them is negligible.
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post #30 of 31
FYI,
I've got the friction losses of various tubing sizes all included in the estimator. Cathar's thread was valid, but it was more of an explanation of how little flow rate impacts temperature rather than tubing itself not causing any restriction. It does cause "Some", but it's still considered a relatively minor loss compared to the pressure drop of the CPU blocks of today.

For example, using an EK supreme HF + RX360 plus D5 setting 5, and assuming 1/2" ID tubing as the baseline and a 50C coretemp using 7' of tubing.


Baseline 1/2" = 50C @ 2.09GPM
7/16" = 50.03C @ 2.05GPM +.03C
3/8 = 50.17C @ 1.86GPM +.17C

So from 1/2" to 3/8" (assuming you use 1/2" fittings), you loose .23 GPM and .17C.

Considering most people can't measure anything less than 1C, it's generally considered insignificant.

Hope this helps, you can also play with this in the estimator. Only catch is that this assumes 1/2" fittings (which is what I use when I install 3/8" tubing). It does take a little work to install the tubing on those larger fittings. Going to 3/8" fittings would cause more impact.

I prefer using 7/16" ID x 5/8" tubing myself, it gives a better leak free tight fitting over 1/2" and easier to route than 3/4" OD.

3/8" ID x 1/2" OD kinks a little too easy and doesn't quite look right for my taste.
Edited by Martinm210 - 1/6/11 at 7:37pm
    
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Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
Phoenix SSD+2TB Seagate drives ASUS DVD-RW combo Windows 7 28" Hanns-G HZ281 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
MS Natural Corsair TX650 Danger Den Torture Rack Logitech MX518 
Mouse Pad
Desk 
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3930K ASrock X79 Ext7 Evga GTX570 CORSAIR Vengeance 16GB 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
Phoenix SSD+2TB Seagate drives ASUS DVD-RW combo Windows 7 28" Hanns-G HZ281 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
MS Natural Corsair TX650 Danger Den Torture Rack Logitech MX518 
Mouse Pad
Desk 
  hide details  
Reply
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Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › which pump is powerful?