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[Engadget] Microsoft confirms ARM support is coming in Windows - Page 3

post #21 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus View Post
This is what I don't understand. It's clear that MS want to get into the tablet market - yet they have other operating systems better suited to it - such as WP7 (with a lot of work to make it usable as a tablet, of course).

99% of Windows user interfaces are not optimized for touchscreens, and so can be difficult to use. IMO it's a much better idea to focus on having some quality tablets in the marketplace running a quality tablet OS - without having to worry about recompiling and an interface that was not designed for tablets.
Dont have much more to add but I have to agree.
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post #22 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by dham View Post
Brutuz you probably should have watched the presentation before making assumptions. Just saying.




Yes they did. I think it's kind of cool. ARM Windows would be a lot safer. At least for a while.
I'm going from the past, WinXP 64bit?

So they recompiled it? That means most of the applications in the world for Windows won't be compatible unless they make some kind of JIT...Unless they make some way of emulating x86 programs or at least running them on these devices without the user noticing...well, Windows' only non-user specific advantage (App compatibility) over Android, Linux, iOS, etc is gone.
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post #23 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus View Post
This is what I don't understand. It's clear that MS want to get into the tablet market - yet they have other operating systems better suited to it - such as WP7 (with a lot of work to make it usable as a tablet, of course).

99% of Windows user interfaces are not optimized for touchscreens, and so can be difficult to use. IMO it's a much better idea to focus on having some quality tablets in the marketplace running a quality tablet OS - without having to worry about recompiling and an interface that was not designed for tablets.
Microsoft has hinted that the next windows will change a lot of things. The kernel is not the main problem (although, comparing to OSX, it needs work to improve idle battery life). I believe that the things (such as cloud integration) are for tablet use more than normal windows users (though that is undoubtably another reason). I think that Microsoft will have a dual UI just like Windows XP had classic and XP styles (only it will be the choice of touch friendly or "classic" windows 7) and that the tablet UI will still be more or less WIMP (as I stated in another thread, I don't expect something revolutionary like a true ZUI).

Another objective of switching to ARM isn't because of tablets. ARM (like almost every architecture currently in use) is superior to x86. This is in part due to it not being forced to design around ancient flaws and being able to make major changes to the architecture because it isn't as worried about backwards compatibility. While most all the ARM processors to date are built for low power, some designs (such as Nvidias "Denver") are not pushing for low power at the expense of performance. This is causing a convergence with ARM getting more powerful and power hungry (although it will always have a power advantage because it isn't carrying CISC baggage) and x86 reducing performance and power usage (such as the atom).

An *NIX and ARM notebook or desktop (using Android, Meego, WebOS, QNX, etc) could spell the doom of Windows if a preemptive strike isn't made. This is because no one has real expectations (only expectations based on advertising in most cases) for a new platform and won't expect Windows. In fact, if they already have (or have seen) another device using one of these OS's, they may expect it NOT to be windows.
post #24 of 32
ARM will eventually replace x86 as we know it.

x86 needs a revamp. Support for 30 year old obsolete extensions needs to be dropped. If it's not, both Intel and AMD are in jeopardy. Our current processors are powerful enough to emulate/virtualize whatever is needed.

That said given that the future of computing is in heterogeneous design, perhaps a single, ultra low power x86 core coordinating other various cores would work for desktop and server applications
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post #25 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by hajile View Post
Microsoft has hinted that the next windows will change a lot of things. The kernel is not the main problem (although, comparing to OSX, it needs work to improve idle battery life). I believe that the things (such as cloud integration) are for tablet use more than normal windows users (though that is undoubtably another reason). I think that Microsoft will have a dual UI just like Windows XP had classic and XP styles (only it will be the choice of touch friendly or "classic" windows 7) and that the tablet UI will still be more or less WIMP (as I stated in another thread, I don't expect something revolutionary like a true ZUI).
Even if that happens, the majority of applications won't be touch screen optimized (since they won't be reconfigurable), and they'll have to do a lot of work with context aware typing to make that work.

Quote:
Another objective of switching to ARM isn't because of tablets. ARM (like almost every architecture currently in use) is superior to x86. This is in part due to it not being forced to design around ancient flaws and being able to make major changes to the architecture because it isn't as worried about backwards compatibility. While most all the ARM processors to date are built for low power, some designs (such as Nvidias "Denver") are not pushing for low power at the expense of performance. This is causing a convergence with ARM getting more powerful and power hungry (although it will always have a power advantage because it isn't carrying CISC baggage) and x86 reducing performance and power usage (such as the atom).
The fact that companies still feel the need to explain how arm is better or worse than x86 makes me think that the jury is still out on x86 vs arm. Despite all the perceived advantages of Arm, Intel's CPUs are still faster in terms of raw power - and x86 development is progressing quickly.
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post #26 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus View Post
The fact that companies still feel the need to explain how arm is better or worse than x86 makes me think that the jury is still out on x86 vs arm. Despite all the perceived advantages of Arm, Intel's CPUs are still faster in terms of raw power - and x86 development is progressing quickly.

Put as much development into ARM in terms of servers, retail PCs, etc as x86 gets and watch it beat x86 in performance...And if x86 is progressing quickly, ARM is progressing rapidly.
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post #27 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus View Post
Even if that happens, the majority of applications won't be touch screen optimized (since they won't be reconfigurable), and they'll have to do a lot of work with context aware typing to make that work.
I never said it would be easy, just that they have to do something. It would be possible that changing the UI mode would allow applications to switch UI's at the same time (for example, when you switch from classic UI to touch, your Office suite interface changes from mouse friendly UI to a touch UI).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus View Post
The fact that companies still feel the need to explain how arm is better or worse than x86 makes me think that the jury is still out on x86 vs arm. Despite all the perceived advantages of Arm, Intel's CPUs are still faster in terms of raw power - and x86 development is progressing quickly.
Companies only need to explain the advantages of ARM over x86 to those whom are not educated in microprocessor architecture and engineering. Even Intel saw the need to change architectures both to drop old x86 baggage (ia-64 uses the EPIC architecture style) and because the original x86 architecture patents were expiring. AMD hurt technological development at the expense of software development when they introduced AMD64. If it weren't for that, we would likely be using EPIC or RISC processors now (once upon a time when RAM was limited, CISC's trading performance for less RAM use was a necessity; now that RAM isn't an issue, performance loss due to this is an unnecessary penalty).

Compare x86 processors to POWER and SPARC processors to see what can be offered by architectures similar to ARM. The latest generation of both these architectures is equal to or faster than the competing x86 designs (they are not as popular because everything is compiled for x86 and because IBM and Oracle charge a fortune). In fact MIPS (an architecture almost identical to ARM) used to compete in the supercomputer world before deciding that making low power chips was more profitable.
post #28 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutuz View Post
I'm going from the past, WinXP 64bit?

So they recompiled it? That means most of the applications in the world for Windows won't be compatible unless they make some kind of JIT...Unless they make some way of emulating x86 programs or at least running them on these devices without the user noticing...well, Windows' only non-user specific advantage (App compatibility) over Android, Linux, iOS, etc is gone.
Possibly the "easiest" way forward for Microsoft if they want to go cross-architecture is to build all future versions of their software on the .NET Framework. If the Common Language Runtime is ported to ARM (and any other architecture they want to run stuff on) then portability is immensely simplified. The JIT compiler would convert the CIL to machine-specific object code at runtime.
    
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post #29 of 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepheus View Post
Pointless - it will lead to large incompatibilities between x86 and ARM - since software would have to be compiled differently for each platform. It will just lead to consumer confusion.
Apple got away with it. I get massive frustration when I download the only revision of a program for my PowerPC iBook, and it won't run because its Intel only (yes my mac is that old)
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post #30 of 32
and t'is the starting point of the revival of the giant known as "IBM".

or maybe this is a move to piss apple off just when they've finished switching to x86...
Edited by darksideleader - 1/9/11 at 12:12am
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