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post #101 of 130
I'll repeat my question. So you think the Chinese communist government is good do you?
What exactly are you arguing that communism is better than democracy?
Personally I'd rather live in a democracy but if you prefer communism that's your choice and I won't insult you for it. It's called freedom of speech.

I think that concludes my side of this pointless exchange.
Edited by Ding Chavez - 1/31/11 at 6:22am
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post #102 of 130
Anyway, back to the actual topic..
    
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post #103 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding Chavez;12207171 
Well I don't think the small comments I made about present day China were particularly inaccurate. They have a communist government and a lot of censorship is about all I said, not really that controversial. I'm still not exactly sure what you're disagreeing with. Perhaps you just didn't like the way I said it which may have sounded a bit harsh. Thus the comparison with US mass media. I think you just like arguing about whatever you can think of even if it doesn't make sense.

Chavez,

The only thing "communism" about China is the central government, and even then only in theory. We have to realize Communism != Totalitarianism, and likewise, Captalism != Democracy.

China is partial Totalitarian, in the sense that common people can't vote. But their leaders are internally voted by "parliment" so to speak. Their presidents have terms just like other countries, each with their own method of governing. No, it's no democracy, but miles ahead of North Korea or Stalin/Mao.

Communism describes an ideal political and economical model. As far as economy goes, China is anything but communism, for good and bad. Over there, money talks, and you make money whichever way possible, through corruption and smuggling if necessary. That is 100% againest the Communism ideal, where no one owns a business, and all profits go to individuals. China has perhaps the greatest number of privately owned businesses in the world, and a whole bunch of shallow, Ferrari driving CEOs. How's that Communism at all?

Politics is such a complicated topic that you can't just say: is China a good guy or bad guy. In fact, I'd say every country is in between those two extremes. It's like saying: do you think AMD is a good company? Hard to answer; I'd rather analyze each individual product and its value to the customer.

Likewise, I analyze a political system by its details. In a country like China, things get done quicker, that's why they develope so fast. Here in Canada, it takes 10 years of old ladies arguing back a forth before a damn bridge can be built, meanawhile, traffic gets jam-packed day and night. The upside? If I don't like a bridge by my house, I can voice my opinions (though friends of China are telling me that is starting to change over there as well). Which is better in the end? Hard to generalize.
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post #104 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding Chavez;12208735 
I'll repeat my question. So you think the Chinese communist government is good do you?
What exactly are you arguing that communism is better than democracy?
Personally I'd rather live in a democracy but if you prefer communism that's your choice and I won't insult you for it. It's called freedom of speech.

I think that concludes my side of this pointless exchange.

Dodging obvious questions and facts doesn't make you anymore knowledgeable about the Chinese people, it's culture or the way it's government is run.

I live in the US, and economically, the Chinese government has been great to me. The US is in a recession, and I have the choice not to take part in it. I can't say the same for the mass majority of other poor folks out there.

I never argued that communism is better than democracy, what do you think this is? a intel vs amd fanboy debate? lachen.gif

If you still think the US is a democracy and China a communist state, then you're more backwards than North Korea.

I love how people dodge questions with more senseless questions to give themselves a false feeling of progression in a debate. thumb.gif

I would prefer to have a debate with someone is knowledgeable, worldly and confident about their statements, not someone who goes back and forth editing their post a million times because they're unsure of what they said. rolleyes.gif
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post #105 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding Chavez;12208549 
So you think the Chinese communist government is good do you?
Just accept the fact that not everyone will agree with you no matter what you think of them or say about them.

ps I edit some posts because I can be a bit harsh and try to tone it down a bit.

Just a side note; It's possible there could be an uprising or revolution (or smooth transition) and China could one day become a democracy.

It is possible for China to become a democracy, but as of today I do not think that could be done through an uprising or revolution.

There are different groups(kind of like Rep and Dem here, but these groups are divided within the Communist party system) within the central Chinese government that have different views on things, that support different leadership, and they may disagree with each other within the central government, but one thing that they know is that if the central government overthrown, it will be game over for them. If there is a threat to the central government, they will do whatever necessary to take care of it, including using force.

IF a transition from the current political system to a more democratic system is going to happen, then it can only be done by transformation within the Communist Party over time. Just like how the Chinese political system changed from how it's like in the 1950s to where it is right now. And if the transition does happen, China is probably still gonna be ruled by Communist party, but just in a more democratic way, instead of Western democracy. And this transformation won't happen over night, it will probably take another 30 years from now.

ps: There are a few parties other then the Communist party in China, but those are controlled by the Communist party, they just create those minority parties just to make the system look more democratic. And I do not think the US political system is a true democracy.
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post #106 of 130
This is an article by a respected journalist on China and their communist government. I think you'll find everything I've said is fairly accurate and I'll say no more about it.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/02/5_myths_about_the_chinese_communist_party

If you have any problems with this article please take it up with the author not me. I should point out there is a huge amount of good material which says similar things.
PS AzO I have in fact been to China so according to your ridiculous statement I am able to comment on China. Most sane people would much rather live in a democracy. The question in my previous post was a bit of a trick question. Needless to say you failed dismally.
Edited by Ding Chavez - 2/1/11 at 5:18am
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post #107 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding Chavez;12221544 
PS AzO I have in fact been to China so according to your ridiculous statement I am able to comment on China. Most sane people would much rather live in a democracy. The question in my previous post was a bit of a trick question. Needless to say you failed dismally.

Sure you have, like the millions of tourists that visit China every year. Still doesn't change the fact you're absolutely ignorant of China and everything related.

I must applaud to your relentless mentality to engage in a debate after you've been proven again and again your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Your uncertainty, expressed by how you edit every one of your posts, is enough proof of your ignorance on the matter.

This discussion is over. You may continue living in your dream world. rolleyes.gif
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post #108 of 130
Did you even read the article or the huge amount of material similar to it? Obviously not.

All your posts are completely idiotic and I couldn't care less what you think.

According to you if you edit a post it becomes invalid. So if you say "the sky is blue" and then edit it becomes invalid. Which of course is completely ridiculous just like you and everything you've said. You sound like a 14 year old kid.
You are obviously a complete nutter with no concept of reality.
I would've thought you'd take extreme offense to nardox's post above who says worse things than I did about China. TKO champ.
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post #109 of 130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ding Chavez;12183273 
Further advances in radar technology could make stealthy airframes like the F-22 not so stealthy by 2017 so this Chinese jet could be obsolete before it even enters service. It's highly unlikely China and the US would ever be at war so all this really is purely academic.

This...Stealth was/is a way of getting past the past king of the sky's ie "radar", and while currently stealth is on top, radar is coming back up fast. At which point stealth will be moot.

In fact in military references, Ding has been spot on in nearly every post, interestingly enough, nobody has had any kind of argument for them, instead trolling on his credentials and screaming about politics, which "see below"
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzO;12195876 
Someone seems to have forgotten how the US virtually cleansed the American Indians, but it's OK, it's not in our history books and it's not something elementary school students want to know anyway. rolleyes.gif

What on earth does the Indian clensing have to do with the price of tea in China? Nearly every country on earth is guilty of human rights violations, its the nature of man
Quote:
Originally Posted by AzO;12221725 
Sure you have, like the millions of tourists that visit China every year. Still doesn't change the fact you're absolutely ignorant of China and everything related.

I must applaud to your relentless mentality to engage in a debate after you've been proven again and again your lack of knowledge on the subject.

Your uncertainty, expressed by how you edit every one of your posts, is enough proof of your ignorance on the matter.

This discussion is over. You may continue living in your dream world. rolleyes.gif

What exactly are your credentials, I can speak military, cant speak politics but you seem to know a whole lot, or at least you are able to speak on who doesnt know a lot. He has already stated he has witnessed the country first hand (even if it was as a tourist) which for the sake of argument we have to believe lest we start another pointless argument, have you witnessed the country in even the tourist capacity?


Really it boils down to this

The J-20 while interesting in concept doesn't prove and shouldn't be considered a threat based on a couple of things,

1) Size, it is still debatable whether this should be called a stealth fighter or a stealth bomber, with the larger size (an extra 10ft nose to tail from the F22) you can expect a larger range (higher fuel cap however it is reliant on the efficiency Russian engines *see point 2) and a larger bomb load again pointing more towards at least a joint air to ground aircraft if not a full fledged bomber

2) Russian engines, the Chinese can only get a fleet of these things out if the Russians allow it since they control the aircraft's power plant. If I recall correctly, the Russians pulled support of the Chinese nuclear program when they became keenly aware of the disregard for human life in the Chinese government, I am sure they will be watching with a keen interest, remember just because the Chinese aren't a threat to them now, the more powerful they get the closer they are to a threat.

3) The development timetable is one that could see these aircraft becoming completely pointless before production begins

4) Censorship in china is such that until we get verified results we cant be certain this isnt a paper mache cover on an SU-27

5) Frankly we should all be more concerned about the T-50, Russia is far more capable of creating, manufacturing and selling (to anyone who can afford one) a 5th gen jet



For gods sake people, this is a discussion about a jet, why are we arguing politics. Nobody will ever win! If you would like to take part in a pointless argument about things that can never be proven, go hang out on the "Processor - General" Board
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post #110 of 130
Ok, let me go ahead and step in right here.

- J-20 is CONFIRMED a real test vehicle with flight capability.

- In terms of Operational Capability: None thus far.

- PAK-FA (Russia) has more of a chance of making it through S+D to IOC than the J-20. Be that as it may, even the raptor took ~14 years to make it to IOC.

- Mentioned earlier: If Russia sees that China is doing better than their program, they will pull the powerplant support and make china find their own engines.

- Nowhere in this thread does this say it's about politics. I must have missed it if it did, but i'm pretty sure its not.

- This thing is big. F22 or F35 could spot this thing by VFR easily.

- China has a very good track record of mimicking US ideas. The J-20 is no exception. Or should i say, YF-23 look-alike. Google YF-23 and see what you get. Strange, ain't it.

- No clue if there is truth that this is tech that is derived from a F-117 that crashed during ops in Europe that was supposedly bought piece by piece by the Chinese.

My name is not PFC Brad Manning, but i do have access to some stuff that has been also readily available on google, and some stuff that is not. But where both sources agree is that this is a REAL Jet with stealth capabilities. No specs have been published ANYWHERE, and if i find anything that is releasable to the public i'll post it.

Bottom line: J-20 = REAL Chinese Tech. 5th Manned Stealth Fighter being developed (F-117, F-22, F-35, PAK-FA).

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