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DO NOT use XSPC res tops with your Swiftech pumps... - Page 2

post #11 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vbp6us View Post
I was getting at that in my original post as well. I think the faster flow is leading to overheating but not sure though since one of my pumps died without a res top. My updated specs are in my signature.
There's your answer guy. One of your pumps died without a res top on it. It sounds more like an installation error/bad batch of pumps than a pump top causing this problem.

BTW, if you haven't done so yet, I suggest picking up one of these:

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ekwathpadbig.html

and putting it between the pump bottom and your case. The pad will not only help isolate the noise of the pump but also help wick away the heat from it too.
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post #12 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digidoc View Post
Something doesn't make sense here.

If the pump is burning out prematurely, I'm failing to see how the pump top could be the cause of it. If anything, replacing the top with one that has less restriction should have the opposite effect that Swiftech is claiming. The pump would now not have to work as hard to draw in water from the reservoir, meaning the pump should run cooler.

Additionally, there's no directly link between the impeller and the electronics that drive the impeller (they're magnetically linked). One would think that the ceramic bearing would wear out well before the electronics of the pump would fail (if the problem was that the impeller was spinning too fast). Given that the pump's magnetic drive runs at a constant speed and is physically disconnected from the rest of the pump, if the rotor was out-spinning the magnetic field that's driving it (highly unlikely), it wouldn't be able to "push" the magnetic drive. If it did, it would most likely induce a back-current back into the magnetic coil. If you had a multi-pump setup I could possibly see that happening, but in a single pump setup it's not going to happen.

What this sounds like to me is either:

a) Swiftech had a bad batch of MCP355 pumps and they're using the replacement pump top as an excuse not to warranty them.

b) As others have said, the pump is known to run hot, so there's insufficient cooling of the pump (causing the failure). Given that Koolance specifically makes a heatsink to cool the MCP355 series, I'm more given to believe that the pump is overheating and causing the failure. http://www.frozencpu.com/products/11...c107s156#blank

c) An installation error (ex: Not mounting the back of the pump flush against the bottom of the case) so that the pump is cooled by conduction.

d) The person you talked to from Swiftech didn't actually know what was going on and just used the pump top as an excuse to get you off of the phone and deny your warranty replacement.

Since Swiftech is the one making the claim that the replacement top is causing the failure of the pump, the burden of proof is on them to prove that. What they're suggesting is almost like a car dealer denying your warranty because you changed your tires from Michelin's to Yokohamas, and your engine broke a rod.
you don't understand. think about it this way, if you have a car that is being over revved because of less restriction on it. it is working less, but destroying itself because it is going to fast.

when the pump is spinning too fast, the electronics have to work harder to keep up with the rotations. which heats them up.

swiftech built that pump with a certain level of restriction in mind, by changing the pump top, you are also changing that restriction, so in theory i could make the pump go faster then designed.
post #13 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digidoc View Post
Since Swiftech is the one making the claim that the replacement top is causing the failure of the pump, the burden of proof is on them to prove that. What they're suggesting is almost like a car dealer denying your warranty because you changed your tires from Michelin's to Yokohamas, and your engine broke a rod.
You're right, but oh so wrong. Just like the car dealer, the burden of proof is on you. "Why", you ask? Simple, they already have your money or aren't repairing anything until they get paid... That leaves YOU hiring an attorney to prove they're wrong. Even if an independent lab, another vendor, NASA scientists, or a note from your mother proves beyond a doubt that you're correct, all you can do is b|tch and moan until the manufacturer gives in.

So, is it worth it to hire an attorney over a pump? Sounds like Swiftech already knows the answer. Now they just have to decide if bad publicity is worth more than the pumps in question.

My question is: Did Swiftech diagnose the OP's pump damage without ever seeing it? If so, how is pump failure diagnosed over the phone or through email?

Second question: What does Swiftech gain by blaming XSPC? (are they marketing their own pump/res combo now)?
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post #14 of 80
Did you flush your radiator (hot water/white vinegar) before you installed your loop?
post #15 of 80
Honestly, I don't know what to make of this. I will get an answer my own way, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c5pilot View Post
(are they marketing their own pump/res combo now)?
Yes, they are. The MCP35X has a custom restop that's designed specifically to work with that pump (which is a DDC3.25 modded for PWM, anyway).
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post #16 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrasherht View Post
you don't understand. think about it this way, if you have a car that is being over revved because of less restriction on it. it is working less, but destroying itself because it is going to fast.

when the pump is spinning too fast, the electronics have to work harder to keep up with the rotations. which heats them up.

swiftech built that pump with a certain level of restriction in mind, by changing the pump top, you are also changing that restriction, so in theory i could make the pump go faster then designed.
What you just described isn't mechanically possible with the way this pump is designed or constructed. The rotor and the drive mechanism aren't mechanically linked; it's magnetically linked using an electronically controlled electromagnet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laing's documentation
How the DDC Pump Works:
The permanent magnet rotor/impeller unit is driven by the magnetic field generated by the surrounding stator. The stator is wrapped entirely around the rotor. As a result, the entire pump is only slightly taller than the rotor itself, measuring only 1.5‘‘ in height, perfect for applications where space is limited.
http://lainginc.itt.com/pages/ddc.htm

The pump can't sense the rotation speed of the impeller on the 355 either; it's set to a constant speed, so for all it cares the impeller could be spinning at 20k RPM a second. The electromagnet turning the impeller would still "turn" at XYZ speed.

What you're not understanding here is that the pump lacks a mechanical commutator and a mechanical connection to the impeller, and there's no outside force pushing the rotor past a certain speed. If what you're trying to describe was true then res tops would be the least of everyone's concern; anyone with a multi-pump setup would be having their secondary pumps burn out. The primary pump would be effectively removing the intake restriction on the second pump and causing this issue.

As we all know, nobody with a dual pump setup has been experiencing this issue (that we know of).

Your car analogy is flawed too BTW. I can't say all cars have this, but I know my car for certain has it..

I've got a 2002 Acura RSX (Type S) w/a six speed manual transmission. The car redlines from 8000RPM to 9000RPM. If you try to exceed 9000RPM though, the rev limiter kicks in and prevents you from doing so. It doesn't matter if the wheels are off of the ground or on the pavement, the rev limiter in the ECU kicks in and prevents the engine from exceeding max RPM.

Now.. say I was driving @70MPH while in sixth gear and decided to pull a stupid and drop it into 2nd gear. Sure the synchros in the tranny are supposed to prevent me from doing that, but if you force it, it'll go. At that point the rev limiter won't do jack since I've got an outside force (the forward momentum of the car) acting on the engine to go past max redline. The engine won't be contributing to the forward momentum at this point; if anything it'll be acting as a brake and slowing down the car. Heck, at those speeds though it'd be lucky if I didn't leave some necessary engine parts behind me on the road.

In the case of a mag drive pump, if the impeller tried spinning faster than the magnetic field that the stator is generating, the impeller would then get held back by that magnetic field (acting as a brake). If the impeller somehow managed to spin faster than the magnetic field's rotation in the stator though; the worst that would happen would be that the impeller would "jump" to the next field. If you somehow managed to get the impeller spinning REALLY fast by using another pump, I could potentially see the pump turning into a generator of sorts and causing a power back-flow into the pump's electronics. By itself though, no replacement top is capable of causing that.

All the same it's a bad analogy to a mag drive pump though since a car has a mechanical engine with a mechanical link to the wheels (a clutch or torque converter and transmission). That and you're adding the external force of the car's forward momentum.

But I digress.

With all due respect, Swiftech also did not design or build these pumps, Laing did. If there was really a problem with res tops on the 355/DDC pumps, we'd be hearing about this from people who've bought these pumps directly from Laing or from Danger Den too.

If the problem was the impeller was getting damaged or something along those lines I'd be more inclined to believe it.

The excuse that a res top is causing the pump to burn out because of a lack of restriction, when even pumps that don't have a replacement top are also burning out? Sorry, I don't buy it. It smells like a red herring.

Chunky_Chimp: would you be able to contact someone at Laing to get a definitive answer? If anyone would be able to get to the bottom of this, I believe they could since they make the pumps for Swiftech.
Edited by Digidoc - 1/13/11 at 8:58am
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post #17 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digidoc View Post
Chunky_Chimp: would you be able to contact someone at Laing to get a definitive answer? If anyone would be able to get to the bottom of this, I believe they could since they make the pumps for Swiftech.
I'm actually contacting Swiftech since they communicate directly with Laing (and Swiftech made that claim to begin with). I'm expecting an answer sometime later today.
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post #18 of 80
Mine has been running fine for years.
post #19 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by c5pilot View Post
You're right, but oh so wrong. Just like the car dealer, the burden of proof is on you. "Why", you ask? Simple, they already have your money or aren't repairing anything until they get paid... That leaves YOU hiring an attorney to prove they're wrong. Even if an independent lab, another vendor, NASA scientists, or a note from your mother proves beyond a doubt that you're correct, all you can do is b|tch and moan until the manufacturer gives in.

So, is it worth it to hire an attorney over a pump? Sounds like Swiftech already knows the answer. Now they just have to decide if bad publicity is worth more than the pumps in question.

My question is: Did Swiftech diagnose the OP's pump damage without ever seeing it? If so, how is pump failure diagnosed over the phone or through email?

Second question: What does Swiftech gain by blaming XSPC? (are they marketing their own pump/res combo now)?
Well it depends.

If you slap a supercharger on your engine and you throw a rod, then yeah, you're going to have to fight the dealership. If you change the tires though and your engine all of a sudden develops a problem with the piston rings, the dealership and MFG are going to have a very hard time denying your warranty, especially if you remind them of the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and what the number is of your local district attorney.

In the perspective of a pump though you're right. I also have the same questions as you regarding how Swiftech diagnosed this. You're also correct in that Swiftech is selling their own pump tops for the 35X pumps.

Personally I'd like to see their test findings. To be 100% honest and clear, I actually don't own their 35X series of pumps (I've got 655b's/Laing D4 & D5's, but electronically they work the same as Laing's DDC pumps) so I don't have a vested interest in finding out if an aftermarket res top causes their 35X series of pumps to fail.

However... unless they can prove that the tops and res top combos really are causing pumps to fail (and that they're really not lying), you can rest assured that I won't be buying any more swiftech products (including the Apogee XT and three MCW80's I need to finish my custom loop).
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post #20 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post
I'm actually contacting Swiftech since they communicate directly with Laing (and Swiftech made that claim to begin with). I'm expecting an answer sometime later today.
Great! I'm looking forward to their reply.
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