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DO NOT use XSPC res tops with your Swiftech pumps... - Page 6

post #51 of 80
By and large and as I understand it, all the Laing pumps of this type and series where the same except 3.1-3.2 there is a solder point change (I suspect circumvents a resistor and gets more amperage), and on the 3.2-3.25 the spherical impeller itself is changed. So if it is the xspc res/top, then it would stand to reason that all the Laing pumps would exhibit this issue.

Having of seen this come up a couple times (this topic, not pump failures) I would tend to agree with what undertheradar had to say on the subject, the increased flow/less restriction allows for the impeller to free wheel (potentially) out of phase with the magnetic drive circuit, which has no "sense" element thus, going on design-as-is, by modifying these pumps one way or the other, there is an effect on the pump life/performance, assuming the published life of the pump is what it is. If something is out of phase it does not really matter if it is leading or lagging, it will still be out of phase to the original design.

That said, I think these pumps and the xspc res/top are really quite good, but just because water cooling gear seems to cost a lot does not mean that it is particularly good for your setup or hard wearing.

I run the 3.2 with the res/top and can say that it is both as quiet as the least obnoxious fan, and holds a rpm that I have never seen exceed 1% difference from 4500 rpm, normally closer to .1-.4%, (mind you always on the high side) if this pump/top combo where so badly matched I would really expect to see more rpm throttling than a fraction of a percent.

I have a hard time faulting either part, if A, it does what it says it does, B, I take the time and care to properly mount the equipment, torque the fasteners equally, and level the pump/res, and C, bleed the thing effectively. Take some time and set up some sort of pro-active cooling for the device. Only when one can say they have done there part as well as it could of been done, than one can say, the part is bad from stock.

Both parts from my experience are well built (for what they are), hell you roll your dice and take your chances!
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post #52 of 80
i create a thread with this thopic , i had 3 pomps a 355,350 an a ddc all three burns out with this top res..... i read and read and read and i have not a clear idea whats wrong, if its the reservoir.... if its the pomp.... im totally lost on this.... im worry because i need buy a pump... for my sistem... but i dont want to keep burning bombs.... i think the d5 or 655 its a good choise or a 355 + xspc with a headsink and good ventilation..... maybe the good ventilation and a headsink is the solution to burning pumps...
post #53 of 80
I find it really surprising if a MCP350 12VDC@10W stock pumps are failing when an XSPC Top/RES are added. For one, the 350 generates the least amount of heat compared to the 355. Secondly, the impeller design of the 350 has the black style with the larger intake hole vs. the 355 having the blue-impeller with the smaller intake hole.

Sure, when the 1/2" XSPC Top/RES is added to the 355, the inlet is larger than the blue-impeller intake hole. So, what does this do to the blue-impeller then? Does the flow wash over the top of the blue-impeller disc? Does this cause a blue-impeller imbalance vs. the black-impeller?

Much of the displayed data in this thread is based on the MCP355. I have not seen any real data backing the MCP350 for power, AMPs, and flow increases to warrant issues using the XSPC Top/RES here.

Also, the known original mod that Lee "RoboTech" Garbutt did back when the DDC-1 (MCP350) pump first came out, showed how the pump top can be modified to accept the 1/2" inlet fitting. He ran extensive tests to show how the performance was a boost to the pump with no ill side effects from it.

Now, after the DDC-1 pump was upgraded to the DDC-3.x with a different impeller and almost double the power watts, the 1/2" mod via several aftermarket tops are unknown for the long term side effects on the pump.
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post #54 of 80
I still think it's just shoody components used in the pumps.

If they failed because of adding a top, then all of them would be failing. But there are far more ppl with tops who have never had a problem then those few who have.

Also, you can't say it is the xspc top causing the failure just because it is being used when it fails. That is like blaming Nike for causing car accidents just because a large number of ppl who crashed there cars where wearing Nike shoes at the time.

It is a manufacturing problem and Laing or Swiftech need to address it.
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post #55 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by un-nefer View Post
I still think it's just shoody components used in the pumps.

If they failed because of adding a top, then all of them would be failing. But there are far more ppl with tops who have never had a problem then those few who have.

Also, you can't say it is the xspc top causing the failure just because it is being used when it fails. That is like blaming Nike for causing car accidents just because a large number of ppl who crashed there cars where wearing Nike shoes at the time.

It is a manufacturing problem and Laing or Swiftech need to address it.
I think you make a great point... out of all the people who use this pump, even just those on this forum, how many have ever used the pump without a top unless it was for testing purposes? I figure many people who use this pump, use this res/top as well, cause of its strong performance vs cost.

If nearly 100 percent of the pump end users are using a pump/top/restop, then if and when the pump fails, 100 percent could claim the top did it... but how could we prove otherwise if nearly 100 percent where on a aftermarket top?

We should be able to agree that changing a component within a published system changes the characteristics of that system, this is obvious and published. (see all the charts in this very thread) What effect this has on pump life has not been proven one way or the other, although I think we can assume that higher flow/less restriction = more heat, more heat if not dealt with will reduce overall system life.

Now how this heat is being generated or dissipated seems to be of some debate, and would probably need someone to take the pump apart and examine exactly how the circuitry works, but at the end of the day, it does get hotter than stock.

My Cpu gets hotter too, which is exactly why I am on this forum, but also why I water cool, to address this heat from an OC. The principles are different but the concepts the same, if you push something harder than it has been published to work at, it is probably a good idea to address the additional heat it generates to keep the service life within a personal acceptable limit.

Goto radio shack, buy a heatsink, thermally tape it to the pump, toss some fans around the pump and see what happens.

Click here for what I mean... http://www.overclock.net/water-cooli...l#post12027562
Edited by Soggysilicon - 1/16/11 at 12:07am
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post #56 of 80
Haven't gotten a reply yet... more patience on tap.
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post #57 of 80
@un-nefer,
Uh, what data are you reading? The graphs from Martin's shows the OEM top to have the lowest current or wattage at any given voltage compared to any of the aftermarket ones. It seems that all the aftermarket tops cause the motor to draw an additional 5-8 watts. You are correct, it just seems your data is flipped.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilveR_172 View Post
To be honest i stopped reading your comment from the phrase backyard engineer,
As this is simply not the case XSPC is a widely known custom water cooling component producer to be honest when i got into water cooling i was surprised that the Americans heard of XSPC as its a British firm, but XSPC Make quality components like all their blocks rad and Pump tops its just unfortunate that the Res tops you speak of are breaking the pumps all the mods that XSPC Create are tested massively and when you fit a product you fit it at your own risk , if you don't want to take the risk of breaking the pump the "DONT FIT IT! " Simples as my meerkat friend would say ,
How familiar are you with how these parts are made? It might shock you to know that many of these modded pumps are simply done by people with the machines to do it and some spare time. They are quality machined parts, but the economics of it simply puts hiring an engineer for pump design out of the question unless they have enough projects and sales to keep a paid engineer. Often times, the testing and design is simply trial and error, and at best, sent out to some engineer who will work with it as a side project. This is something you dont want to believe is true it seems...okay: In the aquarium industry, many people had the same reaction when I exposed the truth about who actually designs their custom pumps and equipment, but dont insult my experience based on nothing more than your brand loyalty. Reactions like this are what allows marketing propaganda to be relied on over scientific fact. If you want to prove me wrong, then do so with fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GingerJohn View Post
I never said they were conclusive, merely indicative; I used the ultimate get out word "maybe"

It depends on what is failing, if it is the motor then yes, it would be more useful to know what comes out of the controller. If the failure is in the controller, and said controller is designed to run with a maximum continuous input power of, say, 22W, putting 28W into it may well be the cause of "pump" failure. For all we know the motor itself may be fine.

There may be some AC dynamics going on in the controller / motor itself, but the DC input is still at a higher wattage than the stock pump, and the controller has to deal with that no matter what the motor "VA" is doing. This means that some part of the electrical system will exceed the stock operating conditions, and possibly the component ratings.

Note that again I am not offering any kind of proof or conclusive statement, just indicating a possible cause of the pump failure.


If anyone has a failed sample, would it be possible to take it apart (your warranty was void as soon as you changed the pump top) and try to locate the failed component? You never know, it might even be repairable. It is unlikely, but still worth a shot.

Interesting posts undertheradar, thanks for the info.
Right on... I was prolly pondering too much while typing and not saying things in the most accurate terms. You are right that we dont know if the failure is in the controller or motor, and this is a big deal. I was considering a failure in the motor, which then would have more to do with the heat/inductance buildup in the coils with respect to the phases/slip/AC characteristics. But the higher current and wattage of all these aftermarket tops could cause a failure in what I assume is some sort of chopper circuit. I didnt consider this because I was tired for one and Im used to controllers always having built in current limiters if this is a possible problem. The other thing is that components used in 12v electronics are often rated for up to 30 volts, sometimes more. Perhaps the current of some non-linear part is being exceeded though. The other thing to consider is that if it was a controller failure based on the higher input power, then many of the other aftermarket tops would also be failing, since they are hitting the same wattages at 12 volts.

FWIW, in this case its correct to say that the wattage increases with respect to flow. I just want to point out that this is not always the case. It depends on the motor type as well as what segment of its performance curve the 'wet end' is designed for. You may also see motors that see a wattage decrease as flow increases (less restriction), or even ones that have a bell-curve. One motor/pump combo I am thinking of in particular runs at 120 watts at 3600gph and no back pressure, but if you apply some restriction (about 5 feet of head) it will drop in flow to about 2600gph even though the wattage jumps to about 140 watts. Then as you continue to restrict it more it starts to see a wattage drop like we see here. It might be hard to get an inverse relation between flow and wattage with this pump, but it is possible. Likewise, the assumptions about wattage and heat going down if the load is removed are not correct either. If you take the load off of a motor (I mentioned this already I suppose) all together, it will slip ahead more and when the poles of the stator and rotor are allowed to line up for more of each cycle (like a transformer) you will see more current flow. Sometimes motors use less power with a higher load. Remember, power use depends on both torque and speed, and similarly these parameters can be tuned for sweet spots in relation to both pressure and flow. From the raw physics POV on potential energy you can easily break it down; lifting 100 gallons (per hour) up/against 10 feet (head pressure) requires more power than lifting 50 gallons to 10 feet, but also more power than lifting greater volume of 150 gallons to 5 feet.
post #58 of 80
do you guys think maybe pumps fail more often due to how the loop is setup? Most people on here recommened going res, pump, rad, blocks,

so what happens is hot water ends up running through the pump, when you could run it res pump block rad, and have cool water going through the pump
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post #59 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by SplashScreen View Post
do you guys think maybe pumps fail more often due to how the loop is setup? Most people on here recommened going res, pump, rad, blocks,

so what happens is hot water ends up running through the pump, when you could run it res pump block rad, and have cool water going through the pump
The water in a water cooling loop changes by less than 2C throughout the entire loop, so loop order really isn't going to make a huge difference.

Besides the water doesn't get very hot under normal operation, always staying under 40C.
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post #60 of 80
I just fired up my 355 the other day and it runs hot, I mean so much that I added a fan to it just make sure it does not fail. I used a slot cooler and positioned behind it, now its nice and cool
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