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[Redmondpie] Geohot speaks openly with G4 about Sony Lawsuit against him - Page 17

post #161 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedEarth View Post
I don't think it is up to you to decide what should be in a system that you neither manufactured, nor programmed. This is Sony property regardless of our opinions on what should be on there.

He's just another hacker looking for justification.
my xbox 360 is not microsoft property and my CPU is not the property of Intel either.

It is my property

And same goes for Sony PS3 - the guy deleted their code from it, and runs his own.
post #162 of 171
I've never seen so many bad analogies in my life.
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post #163 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by laboitenoire View Post
I have no problem with Hotz wanting to crack/hack/jailbreak/whatever-you-want-to-call-it the PS3. I have absolutely no respect for some self-righteous prick who steals intellectual property from a multi-billion dollar international giant.
Then you're trying to occupy two sides of a fence at the same time.

The only way to run custom software on a system like the PS3 is to crack the OS and force the ability, which is exactly what he's done. How else can you run your own software on a restricted platform?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Don't you see a problem there? It applies to phones now, I understand that. Good, congrats. It doesn't yet apply to consoles. Keyword is yet. So, as of know, I'm not wrong. I understand this sets major ground for Geo to have a good case, but as of now it is still illegal.

Plus, take a look here. http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
It doesn't say it is "legal", they simply say they aren't going to prosecute people who are doing it. It doesn't say anywhere that the company can't prosecute for violating their service agreement.
What is the difference between your PS3 and your mobile phone?

Both communicate over the internet
Both contain the basic parts that constitute a computer
Both run software

The only difference is the role each plays in society. You're grabbing at straws because you have no ground left to stand on.

The supreme court has already ruled that on a compact computing device that is used primarily for communication you are legally allowed to break into the system in order to add functionality. The only roadblock is an arbitrary distinction between devices, and no matter how good Sony's lawyers are, this will not stand up to scrutiny. Sony might be granted the RO, but it will get challenged and overturned.

Sorry, but your just not right. No offence.

EDIT:

And as well, the definition of 'legal' implies an action you can perform without fear of persecution from the law or any other party, as there is no law prohibiting said action.

The court system exists to determine what laws are supposed to mean, and the court has already ruled that the DCMA does not cover the IP that a company uses to restrict the use of a device you paid for. You own the device, and just because Sony wants to throw a hissy fit doesn't mean it's illegal.
Edited by Bluescreen_Of_Death - 1/15/11 at 9:12pm
post #164 of 171
People are still defending gagillion zillion dollar corporations? -_-
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post #165 of 171
I bought it.. its mine now... I'll take over it obviously.
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post #166 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescreen_Of_Death View Post
What is the difference between your PS3 and your mobile phone?

Both communicate over the internet
Both contain the basic parts that constitute a computer
Both run software

The only difference is the role each plays in society. You're grabbing at straws because you have no ground left to stand on.

The supreme court has already ruled that on a compact computing device that is used primarily for communication you are legally allowed to break into the system in order to add functionality. The only roadblock is an arbitrary distinction between devices, and no matter how good Sony's lawyers are, this will not stand up to scrutiny. Sony might be granted the RO, but it will get challenged and overturned.

Sorry, but your just not right. No offence.

EDIT:

And as well, the definition of 'legal' implies an action you can perform without fear of persecution from the law or any other party, as there is no law prohibiting said action.

The court system exists to determine what laws are supposed to mean, and the court has already ruled that the DCMA does not cover the IP that a company uses to restrict the use of a device you paid for. You own the device, and just because Sony wants to throw a hissy fit doesn't mean it's illegal.
No offense taken, at least you are being respectful with your side. I don't care to be wrong, it is how we learn. The problem is, I've heard the same thing you've been saying countless of times but there still isn't anything to back that up. It is this precedence which continues to come up, I've already cited the source. It is clearly not as what everyone believes it to be. http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
Also, you even said yourself (which it is in bold), that the court determined that a device primarily for communication can be cracked. A gaming console's primary purpose isn't communication.
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post #167 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
No offense taken, at least you are being respectful with your side. I don't care to be wrong, it is how we learn. The problem is, I've heard the same thing you've been saying countless of times but there still isn't anything to back that up. It is this precedence which continues to come up, I've already cited the source. It is clearly not as what everyone believes it to be. http://www.copyright.gov/1201/
(2) Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

Straight from your source. This is exactly what is happening here. GeoHot has found a way to allow lawfully obtained programs to run on a system that has also been lawfully obtained. The only catch is that Sony doesn't want you to.

Do you sue the worker who manufactured the gun that a madman used to mow down students? GeoHot is only providing the means for you and I to lawfully run programs on a system that Sony intentionally restricted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Also, you even said yourself (which it is in bold), that the court determined that a device primarily for communication can be cracked. A gaming console's primary purpose isn't communication.
Lets lay down some definitions:

Definitions of communication on the Web:
the activity of communicating; the activity of conveying information;

Definitions of information on the Web:
a message received and understood
knowledge acquired through study or experience or instruction
formal accusation of a crime
data: a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn; "statistical data"

So, communication can be defined as the relaying of information. How does a console not do this? Not only do the internal components relay information between each other, but the console relays information between its self and the user, as well as between other consoles and computers.

Once again, you're clinging to arbitrary distinctions.

Besides, with the crack GeoHot has released, the PS3 could be made into a communications device, thus invalidating your argument anyway.
Edited by Bluescreen_Of_Death - 1/15/11 at 11:53pm
post #168 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescreen_Of_Death View Post
(2) Computer programs that enable wireless telephone handsets to execute software applications, where circumvention is accomplished for the sole purpose of enabling interoperability of such applications, when they have been lawfully obtained, with computer programs on the telephone handset.

Straight from your source. This is exactly what is happening here. GeoHot has found a way to allow lawfully obtained programs to run on a system that has also been lawfully obtained. The only catch is that Sony doesn't want you to.

Do you sue the worker who manufactured the gun that a madman used to mow down students? GeoHot is only providing the means for you and I to lawfully run programs on a system that Sony intentionally restricted.



Lets lay down some definitions:

Definitions of communication on the Web:
the activity of communicating; the activity of conveying information;

Definitions of information on the Web:
a message received and understood
knowledge acquired through study or experience or instruction
formal accusation of a crime
data: a collection of facts from which conclusions may be drawn; "statistical data"

So, communication can be defined as the relaying of information. How does a console not do this? Not only do the internal components relay information between each other, but the console relays information between its self and the user, as well as between other consoles and computers.

Once again, you're clinging to arbitrary distinctions.
It specifically directs it to wireless telephone handsets.

I'm not saying a console doesn't communicate in anyway. Just because components communicate with each other, it still doesn't make communication its primary function. It is a gaming console, it's intended primary purpose is to play games on it. My phone lets me play games on it, but its primary purpose is still to communicate with people. Though I do understand what you are saying, but the word "primary" changes things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescreen_Of_Death
Besides, with the crack GeoHot has released, the PS3 could be made into a communications device, thus invalidating your argument anyway.
If my argument is invalid due to what someone could do with the hack, then your argument is invalid for what someone could do with the hack. Someone could make the PS3 primarily for communications, or they could make it play illegally obtain content.

The real question in the end will be, should they treat video game consoles like telephones. If they do, then what he has done would be legal. Though at this point, it isn't. Simply put, he forcefully broke in and stole security keys which allow him to forge unofficial content.
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post #169 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
It specifically directs it to wireless telephone handsets.
And, as I've said, it's a small step to go from wireless phones to all digital media. With the DCMA allowing this to be done to phones, any lawyer can get it extended.

Sony very well may be granted the restraining order, but it will get challenged and overturned, and the DCMA will be changed to reflect it. I can practically guarantee that. If not, I'll eat my words. But the primary issue here is who owns what part of the console, and the US court system has a history of siding with the guy who paid cash for the item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
I'm not saying a console doesn't communicate in anyway. Just because components communicate with each other, it still doesn't make communication its primary function. It is a gaming console, it's intended primary purpose is to play games on it. My phone lets me play games on it, but its primary purpose is still to communicate with people. Though I do understand what you are saying, but the word "primary" changes things.
A rose by any other name...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
If my argument is invalid due to what someone could do with the hack, then your argument is invalid for what someone could do with the hack. Someone could make the PS3 primarily for communications, or they could make it play illegally obtain content.

The real question in the end will be, should they treat video game consoles like telephones. If they do, then what he has done would be legal.
I'll give you that. But the point still remains that the only distinction between the cell phone and a console is arbitrary. What is the difference between your cellphone and a console other than the role it fills in society?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Though at this point, it isn't. Simply put, he forcefully broke in and stole security keys which allow him to forge unofficial content.
If it was illegal, I think he'd be behind bars. It's more of a grey area right now.
post #170 of 171
Quote:
Originally Posted by laboitenoire View Post
I have absolutely no respect for some self-righteous prick who steals intellectual property from a multi-billion dollar international giant.
Yeah, to hell with the common man trying to take back what is rightfully his (Payed for). All in favor for the multi-billion dollar international giant, I say!
Edited by Trigunflame - 1/20/11 at 12:55pm
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