Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel Motherboards › epic LLC on or off thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

epic LLC on or off thread - Page 3

Poll Results: LCC on or off

 
  • 60% (21)
    On
  • 11% (4)
    Off
  • 28% (10)
    i don't know
35 Total Votes  
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by fliq;12016942 
and fliq...

I see how it is:(

Awww sorry helpinghand.gif

And Fliq ladies and Gentleman
Dell Optiplex 745
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Q6600 (incoming) Dell proprietary Intel Q965 Express Chipset XFX HD 5770 (incoming) 4GB Patriot DDR2 800 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Hitachi Deskstar 160GB 7200RPM DVDRW Stock Windows XP 32 (for the time being) 
MonitorPower
Dell 22" 1680x1050 Corsair CX430 
  hide details  
Reply
Dell Optiplex 745
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Q6600 (incoming) Dell proprietary Intel Q965 Express Chipset XFX HD 5770 (incoming) 4GB Patriot DDR2 800 
Hard DriveOptical DriveCoolingOS
Hitachi Deskstar 160GB 7200RPM DVDRW Stock Windows XP 32 (for the time being) 
MonitorPower
Dell 22" 1680x1050 Corsair CX430 
  hide details  
Reply
post #22 of 24
This quote from the OP's post doesn't make much sense:
Quote:
As you can see in the table above there is a TDC and a TDP. Now TDP is max heat output of the processor (wattage), let’s say we stick within Icc (current/amperage) of 85amps at load. 85amps x voltage=95watts (TDP). So If voltage is increased for overclocking, then at idle the processor needs to droop the voltage so that amperage x voltage doesn’t exceed TDP, you do not want to drop amperage because it is almost all the power (plus you don’t have control over it), voltage is nothing but a signal without amperage behind it. Of course with Sandy Bridge you can set the upper limit on TDP and TDC and you won’t push that much amperage until critical point, plus Sandy Bridge can exceed TDP on its own.

Amperage is directly determined by load and clock speed. An idle processor draws almost no current because it is not doing anything. You have no direct, independent, control over current draw. It will draw what it needs to do the work it's doing.

You could run five volts through a SB at idle and not exceed the TDP. Of course, even at idle, five volts would destroy the chip in very short order.

Voltage is not "just a signal". A better analogy is that voltage is pressure and amperage is the volume of flow. The amount of work done is voltage multiplied by amperage. Nothing happens without either component.

Also:
Quote:
Load Line Calibration or Vdroop control is a setting that eliminates/reduces processor voltage droop under load and in many extreme cases many reverse voltage droop. Voltage droop is there so that under load conditions where current (amperage) is increased the processor stays within TDP (Thermal Design Power). There is also vdrop which is implemented by the motherboard manufacturer, vdrop is there and it drops every voltage on the board from what is set in BIOS, no matter the load. LLC can reverse Vdroop and Vdrop in many cases.

This is not primarily why vdrop/vdroop exists.It exists primarily to protect a chip from transient loads and the spikes that are sure to follow with most VRMs. The VID specification is the max voltage a chip is ever supposed to see (with a provision for a very minor overshoot), not the voltage that is supposed to be continually delivered.

In the end, I usually recommend against LLC/turning off vdroop. In most cases it does not help anything, and only serves as a false reassurance that you are not putting too much voltage through your chip because you can set a lower number in the BIOS. In reality, the opposite is usually true.

That said, on boards with very robust VRMs and multiple LLC options, I am usually willing to reduce vdroop, because Intel's default load line seems overly aggressive in lowering voltage at high current draws if you aren't even near what the board can deliver.
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.3/3.6GHz core/uncore, 1.225/1.2v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) 2x Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC New Edition (10036... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-11-12-27-T1, 1.37v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
Primary
(15 items)
 
Secondary
(13 items)
 
In progress
(10 items)
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
5820K @ 4.3/3.6GHz core/uncore, 1.225/1.2v Gigabyte X99 SOC Champion (F22n) 2x Sapphire R9 290X Tri-X OC New Edition (10036... 4x4GiB Crucial @ 2667, 12-11-12-27-T1, 1.37v 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Plextor M6e 128GB (fw 1.05) M.2 (PCI-E 2.0 2x) 2x Crucial M4 256GB 4x WD Scorpio Black 500GB Cooler Master Nepton 280L 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 7 Professional x64 SP1 BenQ BL3200PT Filco Majestouch Tenkeyless (MX Brown) Corsair RM1000x 
CaseMouseAudio
Fractal Design Define R4 Logitech G402 Realtek ALC1150 + M-Audio AV40 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
X5670 @ 4.4/3.2GHz core/uncore, 1.36 vcore, 1.2... Gigabyte X58A-UD5 r2.0 w/FF3mod10 BIOS Reference R9 290X w/Stilt's MLU 1000e / 1375m E... 2x Samsung MV-3V4G3D/US @ 2000, 10-11-11-30-T1,... 
RAMHard DriveHard DriveHard Drive
1x Crucial BLT4G3D1608ET3LX0 @ 2000, 10-11-11-3... OCZ (Toshiba) Trion 150 120GB Hyundai Sapphire 120GB 3x Hitachi Deskstar 7k1000.C 1TB 
CoolingOSPowerCase
Noctua NH-D14 Windows 7 Pro x64 SP1 Antec TP-750 Fractal Design R5 
Audio
ASUS Xonar DS 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-6800K @ 4.3/3.5GHz core/uncore, 1.36/1.2v ASRock X99 OC Formula (P3.10) GTX 780 (temporary) 4x4GiB Crucial DDR4-2400 @ 11-13-12-28-T2, 1.33v 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Intel 600p 256GB NVMe 2x HGST Travelstar 7k1000 1TB Corsair H55 (temporary) Windows Server 2016 Datacenter 
PowerCase
Seasonic SS-860XP2 Corsair Carbide Air 540 
  hide details  
Reply
post #23 of 24
I'm not sure I understand the argument for turning off LLC. Let me know if I am understanding this correctly, here is how I see it:

I'm running at 1.3V at idle and 1.3V is what I set in bios. When I run a stress test, my voltage decreases to 1.27 or something and then I become unstable and fail the test. To get stable, I increase voltage to 1.33V so I get 1.30V at load to be stable. Now the processor runs at 1.33V a majority of the time, putting unnecessary wear on things just so I can be stable at load.

Throwing LLC into the equation will allow me to set 1.3V in bios, run 1.3V at idle, and when under load the board will supply an additional 0.03V to the processor so it runs at 1.3V even when heavily loaded. This will make the processor never exceed 1.3V and thus put less stress on it in the long run.

With that understanding in mind, are people saying that when LLC kicks in and starts to add the extra voltage, you get a very short spike in voltage that over time can damage the processor? Is there any proof that this is true? That seems exactly like the type of thing a design would take into account to avoid if possible.
Edited by DayoftheGreek - 1/15/11 at 4:34pm
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-2600k 4.5GHz @ 1.32V Asus P8P67 Pro EVGA GTX 580 Mushkin 2133 9-10-9-24 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840  WD Black Silver Arrow Windows 7 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell U2211H Rosewill RK-9000BR Seasonic X750 HAF X 
MouseAudio
Razer Lachesis Grado HF2 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7-2600k 4.5GHz @ 1.32V Asus P8P67 Pro EVGA GTX 580 Mushkin 2133 9-10-9-24 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
Samsung 840  WD Black Silver Arrow Windows 7 
MonitorKeyboardPowerCase
Dell U2211H Rosewill RK-9000BR Seasonic X750 HAF X 
MouseAudio
Razer Lachesis Grado HF2 
  hide details  
Reply
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blameless;12020416 
This quote from the OP's post doesn't make much sense:



Amperage is directly determined by load and clock speed. An idle processor draws almost no current because it is not doing anything. You have no direct, independent, control over current draw. It will draw what it needs to do the work it's doing.

You could run five volts through a SB at idle and not exceed the TDP. Of course, even at idle, five volts would destroy the chip in very short order.

Voltage is not "just a signal". A better analogy is that voltage is pressure and amperage is the volume of flow. The amount of work done is voltage multiplied by amperage. Nothing happens without either component.


Also:



This is not primarily why vdrop/vdroop exists.It exists primarily to protect a chip from transient loads and the spikes that are sure to follow with most VRMs. The VID specification is the max voltage a chip is ever supposed to see (with a provision for a very minor overshoot), not the voltage that is supposed to be continually delivered.

In the end, I usually recommend against LLC/turning off vdroop. In most cases it does not help anything, and only serves as a false reassurance that you are not putting too much voltage through your chip because you can set a lower number in the BIOS. In reality, the opposite is usually true.

That said, on boards with very robust VRMs and multiple LLC options, I am usually willing to reduce vdroop, because Intel's default load line seems overly aggressive in lowering voltage at high current draws if you aren't even near what the board can deliver.

i think it makes sense as what i was trying to say was that the reason vdroop is there is because there is a need for voltage to be droped under load as amperage is increased, now if you disagree with that, then you also disagree with Intel, as that is why they state Vdroop is there as defined in VRD 11.1 loadline spec.

Voltage is mostly just a signal, you carry thousands of volts in your body when you have static charged, and then you discharge it and you don't die. yes voltage is a bit more than a signal, but it does very little without amperage and that is what i was trying to get across. eV is really just the measure of electrical potential between two points.

Vdrop and Vdroop exist to protect internal parts and that is what I said, tdp and tdc are protection for the chip.

FYI VID definition as changed, as now VID changes.

I have been doing vdroop mods since the P4 days, (when they were also pencil mods) i always soldered. I feel as if back in those days there was a huge need for vdroop because VRM design was very rugged, vdroop was very terrible, now VRm design has gotten much better, it has improved so much that there really aren't too many transient spikes anymore, and transient response has also increased (with analogue not digital) to correct errors.
Edited by Sin0822 - 1/15/11 at 5:49pm
X99 Main Rig
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 5960X Extreme Edition @ 4.5GHz Always Changing VisonTek R9 290 G.Skill Ripjaws 4 16GB (4x4GB) DDR4 @ 3200MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 128GB M.2 PCI-E 4x SSD Apotop 256GB SSD 1.82TB NAS Noctua NH-D15 with both fans 
OSPower
Win7 Pro Enermax 1000W 
  hide details  
Reply
X99 Main Rig
(10 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel 5960X Extreme Edition @ 4.5GHz Always Changing VisonTek R9 290 G.Skill Ripjaws 4 16GB (4x4GB) DDR4 @ 3200MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 128GB M.2 PCI-E 4x SSD Apotop 256GB SSD 1.82TB NAS Noctua NH-D15 with both fans 
OSPower
Win7 Pro Enermax 1000W 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Intel Motherboards
Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel Motherboards › epic LLC on or off thread