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Please Read Before Purchasing EK Nickel Plated Blocks - Update: Revised plating info - Page 85

Poll Results: In light of EK's nickel failure, will you buy their blocks?

 
  • 39% (231)
    Yes, continue or consider using their blocks (copper or nickel)
  • 60% (354)
    No, I will look into other manufacturers.
585 Total Votes  
post #841 of 1650
Source - http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...6&postcount=25

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedRaider View Post


Did I just read this post by Eddy on XS (which they have now deleted by the way) correctly? Did he just single out the United States of America and Australia, as the only two countries that are experiencing problems with EK's defective nickel plated blocks? Man, does this Slovenian have some balls pulling that crap. I distinctly remember seeing a user on hardwareluxx.de post up pictures of his defective EK nickel plated block that was severely corroded. So not only is this paying customer of yours in GERMANY, but he was also rolling a coolant with FOUR CORROSION INHIBITORS in it. Here is the post.



Eddy, man now I see why you must have asked Vapor or another admin at XS to delete the above post. I would bet that the United States of America and Australia are a BIG SOURCE of revenue for your company, well since we are a problem, I'm sure the word will pass around from AMERICAN to AMERICAN to steer clear of your ungrateful Slovenian company.

If EK had properly plated their blocks in nickel, there wouldn't be any bimetallic corrosion arising in these blocks. Only when there is exposure of the copper through the nickel, do the conditions for bimetallic corrosion exist. Why does EK now demand that it's nickle plated block customers use anti-corrosive additives? Well I know that anti-corrosive additives work by reacting with a single exposed metal to form a sort of 'film', which is supposed to serve as a barrier against further oxidation. So since we are currently seeing bimetallic corrosion with these blocks, this is being used as a 'band-aid' of sorts (if it will even work at all), instead of addressing the TRUE problem, which is again the sub-standard nickel plating. If the copper blocks were given a proper nickel plating job in the first place, the bimetallic corrosion would be mitigated and no 'cover my ass' additives would be needed.

Having plated well in excess of 200 block over the past 2 years, I can tell you that EK's main problem begins with their horrid machine marks. Those alone doesn't give, whoever is plating these blocks, much of a chance for success. The horrid machine marks and ragged edges found on EK's blocks will trap dirt and oxidation, which will not allow the nickel to get a bond on the copper surface of the block. This was proven by Rubidium with the pics he posted when looking at the tested block under his microscope. Besides the fact the interior of the tested block had areas on it that had exposed copper that were easily visible to the naked eye, there were other areas that appeared to be plated to the naked eye but in fact showed exposed copper under the microscope. Hence why everyone is experiencing bimetallic corrosion when using these blocks with distilled water or distilled water + silver, or distilled water + PTnuke, or distilled water + PTnuke (PHN), or distilled water + dye, etc. Take a cue from the history of metallurgy, people have turned to nickel and chromium plating for many years, as the SOLE means of avoiding corrosion of plated substrates.

Again, this begins with EK's poor machining (dull tooling/speed of milling), then moves to lack of proper preparation of the copper blocks prior to plating and ends with EK's sub-standard plating process.

I should have several EK nickel blocks in my possession by the end of the week:

* Unopend EK HF Supreme - Full Nickle Plated
* The Test Subject - EK 460GTX Full Nickel Plated (well what was on it when Rubidium opened it and left over from the test)
* Opened/Not Used EK 580GTX - Full Nickle Plated

My plater and I are going to have some discussions while he inspects the above blocks. I going to ask for his professional opinion (+30 years experience) as to what is happening during EK's plating process.

I will also be posting pictures and maybe a video of the removal of the defective EK nickel plating, among other things.

Stay Tuned....
Also concerning that test done by Kayin -

Source - http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=...0&postcount=33
Quote:
Originally Posted by rubidium
Wow! Where to begin?

Well, I'll begin as I usually do in advising caution. No one here to my knowledge, including myself, has the appropriate equipment (e.g. an atomic absorption/emission spectrophotometer, or a mass spectrometer) to perform a proper quantitative analysis on the copper used by EK. That requires highly specialized and expensive equipment. If this line of investigation is to continue with any scientific rigor, then I strongly recommend we take an EK copper block and send it off to any of a number of qualified analytical laboratories for a full assay. I for one would contribute to the cost of the service.

Having said that, qualitative tests have their place in indicating the possible makeup of an alloy, but even if done right one can run the risk of indicating the presence of trace quantities of elements that may have little or no metallurgical significance to the problems we're witnessing with the EK blocks. If done wrong (e.g. outside contaminants are introduced into the sample from the tools used to extract the sample or from some other source) then they could give false indications.

I don't want to spend a lot of time criticising the Kayin effort, but I will throw out a few cautionary remarks:


- I don't know what it means that "test shavings did not give straight copper(II) sulfate". Not enough information here.
- "Peroxide would not give light blue", and by itself it shouldn't. Subjecting copper to hydrogen peroxide will oxidize the copper and form a dark-gray to black surface film of cupric oxide. If left undisturbed, this insoluble film will serve as a barrier to further oxidation of the copper beneath it and the reaction will stop. No color is involved in this reaction.
- "Ammonia did not give dark blue", and by itself it shouldn't, unless the copper had an oxide coating. Ammonia - or more properly, ammonium hydroxide - will not react with copper. It will, however, form what is called a coordination complex with the copper ions associated with cupric oxide and other copper compounds. In the case of cupric oxide, it will dramatically increase the solubility product, and an oxide film on a copper surface will dissolve into a solution containing ammonium hydroxide. The physical size of the cupro-ammonium complex ion, Cu(NH3)4++, causes ambient light to be selectively scattered such that the solution containing the complex appears deep-blue. The bare copper surface that remains will not react any further in the presence of ammonia only, and only will if an additional oxidizer is also present in the solution. Dissolved oxygen in the water or the addition of hydrogen peroxide will cause the cycle of cupric oxide formation, complexation of the copper ions, and dissolution of the cupric oxide, to continue until one or more of the ingredients is exhausted.
- "Hydrochloric acid attacked the surface", only if the surface had a coating of oxidation. HCl will not dissolve copper metal, but will dissolve copper compounds like cupric oxide (it's a good way to clean oxidized blocks). If the solution of HCl is aerated, or contains come other oxidizing agent like H2O2, then the copper will be dissolved via a cycle similar to what I described with ammonia.


- Flame tests can be very effective at visually determining the identity of an unknown metal ion based on the characteristic color the salt turns the flame of a bunsen burner. The heat of the flame excites the metals ions, causing them to emit visible light. The characteristic emission spectra can be used to differentiate between some elements. However, I would not try to perform a flame test on a metal scraping directly, as that's unreliable. Rather, I would have preferred that the metal be completely dissolved in nitric acid, and then a platinum or nichrome wire dipped into the solution and then placed in the clear or blue part of the flame to view the resulting color. First, the wire should be cleaned by dipping in nitric acid, followed by rinsing with distilled or deionized water, and then tested for cleanliness by inserting it into a gas flame after cleaning. If a burst of color is produced with a clean loop, then the loop is not sufficiently clean. So I don't know what to make of this test, since I don't know the details of the procedure actually practiced. What I do know is that very little gives purple (potassium). Also, the test cannot detect low concentrations of most ions.


- Again, I don't know what procedure was followed here. But I do know that care has to be taken with measuring the volume of a complex shape. If any air gets trapped (particularly in blind threaded holes for example) then the volume of the block as measured by water displacement could be over-estimated and thereby result in a low density estimate. I would certainly add a few drops of a wetting agent (like Kodak Photo-flo) to the water before doing this.


Edit: Oh yea ... I have encountered countless nickel or chrome plated brass articles. Bitspower fittings for one!

Edited by AdvanSuper - 6/8/11 at 7:47am
post #842 of 1650
Ok, so let's asume EK findings are 100%. Then PT Nuke is a Time Bomb! My WC built on january is composed of EK-FC5970 (copper only), Swiftech Apogee XT (Rev 1, highly restrictive), Swiftech 655, XSPC Dual Bay reservoir for D5, XSPC RX360. I can't confirm the metal/coating used at the top of the Apogee , but by Swiftech's XTL webpage about diferences from the XT version I can quote "The housing is made of Delrin instead of chrome plated brass; ". Now looking at the table below, chrome eletronegativity gap to copper is much higher then nickel's. So I supose over time my EK-FC5970 will "eat" the chrome plating on the top of the CPU block? What about the brass made (I supose) RX360? So, if this is real why we don't see fully eroded, even pierced radiators with PT Nuke + distilled water? (With nickel or copper blocks, pick yours).



Look at Cr's and Ni's relative distance to Cu.



Apogee XT Rev 1 top.
Edited by armartins - 6/8/11 at 10:50am
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post #843 of 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdvanSuper View Post
Source -



Also concerning that test done by Kayin -

Source -
Hey bruh you wanna remove the direct pages please. It's definitely against ToS to advertise other sites. I believe just having the link is plenty fine enough. Don't need to tempt the mods with direct page quotes.

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post #844 of 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsm106 View Post
As a manufacturer how could you ever let this happen? Seriously. They'd have to be borderline !@#$% to be ignorant of the quality of materials. Always, always in manufacturing you have to check for QC before you waste your tooling and resources milling a bunch of sub quality stock. Also, you know, your tooling is geared for X stock and if you put in Y stock it will affect your wear rates.

At the beginning of a run on a cnc, tolerances are within a small deviation range, but at the end of the run deviation has gone up as tooling wears down. This is all accounted for with milling. Now throw in sub par stock, and you could skew your tool wear rates drastically. This is why they must know what sort of stock they are dealing with.
Hang on now, knowing a little something about Machining, I certainly doubt that Pure Copper is that much different as a solid than Copper Containing alloys.

You're making assumptions that EK never tested. You'd probably be surprised to find that they do test and that they thought they were using reasonably pure billet samples to do their milling on.

Also what you're proposing is time consuming for any business to do. Test every piece of billet before the Mill has a go of it? That's highly unlikely. they probably test every other 3rd one. Possibly even a larger gap in testing than that though. I'm throwing out 3rd to make a point as to how Machine shops once they're reasonably certain they're using high grade metals, cut corners. Cause this is how EK got screwed by their vendor.

Bait and switch. In the beginning they got good product. Then somewhere along the line the switch was made and EK's testing procedures allowed for this. I don't know maybe the vendor observed the workers testing(or lack thereof) testing practices and realized they could make a little more providing lower quality Copper. I mean who would ever know right? Til it all comes crashing down around EK's ears.

All I'm trying to say is you can't make assumptions as to what EK does or doesn't do once the Billets are cut for milling. I certainly doubt that one could tell the difference in the milling process as most everything is computerized these days. The computer only knows the course laid out and the bit doesn't know copper from gold. It's gonna cut regardless of concrete or lead.

Back in the days of pure Artisans who cut using nothing but their naked eye, they might be able to tell you the difference in solids but I doubt it considering how close it was to actual copper. Being .9 off in atomic scale. At least I know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if you handed me a block of either and told me they were both pure copper. Not without an electron microscope or some other kind of accepted testing procedure. Short of having a microscope at the mill I doubt any of their employees could either.

In theory you're dead bang spot on. That's how it SHOULD work. But in the real world labor costs trump everything. I haven't worked for an employer yet that cared so much about the consumer on the other end and said labor be damned. Every one of them after they opened their doors cut corners where they could with labor for the sake of efficiency.

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post #845 of 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Hey bruh you wanna remove the direct pages please. It's definitely against ToS to advertise other sites. I believe just having the link is plenty fine enough. Don't need to tempt the mods with direct page quotes.

~Ceadder
It's fine, as long as it stays on topic and positively contributes to it. Definitely not advertising at any rate.
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post #846 of 1650
Looks like I made the good choice sticking with swiftech. I do admin that EKs blocks do look the best tho, guess not after awhile tho..
post #847 of 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennobanzai View Post
Looks like I made the good choice sticking with swiftech. I do admin that EKs blocks do look the best tho, guess not after awhile tho..
I agree. They look nice.
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post #848 of 1650
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tennobanzai View Post
Looks like I made the good choice sticking with swiftech. I do admin that EKs blocks do look the best tho, guess not after awhile tho..
Quote:
Originally Posted by HybridCore View Post
I agree. They look nice.
Yes and they perform exceptionally well. Too bad quality has gone down the toilet
post #849 of 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chunky_Chimp View Post
It's fine, as long as it stays on topic and positively contributes to it. Definitely not advertising at any rate.
Ahh okay. My bad then.



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post #850 of 1650
The only reason I have ek blocks on my 470's is because I got them cheap, and they were from the first batch. I wanted some aquacomputer blocks but they were sold out everywhere
    
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