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Maybe a Repost - but, Why Desktop Linux Sucks - Page 2

post #11 of 61
very interesting watch thanks for posting

and yes... biggest problem with linux is and always will be standards we need major projects to stop sprouting up and just MERGE... imagine a fusion of apt-get yum and pacman

we need the IEEE to step in or some ****...

i could imagine a program similar to steam working well even across multiple platforms as long as it ended up being TOTALLY modular, and every single dependency or file it used would be included within its own directories... WHICH would make it have a very huge memory foot print and make it impractical for most
Kinda meh now...
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Kinda meh now...
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post #12 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EntTheGod View Post
very interesting watch thanks for posting

and yes... biggest problem with linux is and always will be standards we need major projects to stop sprouting up and just MERGE... imagine a fusion of apt-get yum and pacman

we need the IEEE to step in or some ****...

i could imagine a program similar to steam working well even across multiple platforms as long as it ended up being TOTALLY modular, and every single dependency or file it used would be included within its own directories... WHICH would make it have a very huge memory foot print and make it impractical for most
Well, SLAX is entirely modular and super tiny without a huge memory foot print. But, you do have to grab each dependency yourself. And in SLAX regard, some programs don't clearly list what dependencies are just "suggested" and what ones are vital to the OS/programs.
     
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post #13 of 61
what canonical did for linux is what apple did for bsd.

one day we will wake up and it will hit us "ubuntu IS Linux" all the other distro's will be the hobby linux's.

my complaints:

1. to fast of release cycles, six months is too fast. and the rolling release method doesn't work either IMHO, i had to reinstall arch the other night cause of a outdate repo, and installig a bunch of out of date software (about 8 months old from what i could tell), and then fixing the repo problem, and doing the pacman -Syu to get the updated software, it didn't make my system unusable, it was the little bitty annoying problems that kept happening that annoyed me.

2. bleeding edge, honestly what is the point? whats the point in having on the latest and greatest, if it is filled with bugs and issues? one of the biggest selling points to me for linux has and always will be stability, this cutting/bleeding edge mentality sorta started with ubuntu, and caught fire in other distro's.

3. hardware - there is an incredible amount of hardware that simple does not work with linux, and this isn't really linux's fault, well it sorta is. the biggest problem is userbase, nvidia has been good to the linux community in the last few years, and for one reason, whatever our user base truly is, they know the ones commited to running linux and using it daily, know that nvidia prop drivers work fairly well with linux, and most people i know who run linux, purchase nvidia cards, i don't think they give two cents about the linux users or open source, but they like a healthy profit margin, and this gives them a slight edge over ati.

so i believe it will come down to that, like mushroomboy was saying, whichever distro has the largest userbase will be the one who gets the goodies linux users have wanted, like photoshop.

4. standards - i believe this is another thing that holds the linux back, there is no standardization between the distros, and i know some will make claim that this is what sets the distro's apart, that one has a bsd style init scripts, the other uses upstarts, this one uses bizzaro and that one use tiddles the cat fur, but that drives me mad, i guess to each his own.

5. not posix - linux is not "posix", its not certified that is, and that is cause the lack of "standards" that go along with the name, the only thing that each distro have in common usually that they use the linux kernel and mostly use open source software, not much of a standard there...and posix simply isn't enough of a standard, there should be slightly tighter reigns, so a "linux OS consortium" should be created, have ubuntu, debian, redhat, novell, all the big distro's get together to set standards, i guess you can have some of the niche distro's there as well, but i honestly would only let the slackware folks in

6. better funding - that is the big one, open source is free, but the developers are not usually, for small things they typically are, but for large projects to be good or even successful they need quality developers who know what they are doing, not you 13 year old script kiddy.

7. limit amount of developers - as a programmer myself, i know how devestating having 30 ppl working on one project that only honestly needs 3 or 4 working on it, you get a lot of overlapping in code, a lot of changes that get pushed that over write a fix or others code, you actually get more delays or mess ups with the larger amount of people.

8. Stop reinventing the damn wheel - i do a lot of webprogramming and sites get pushed my way all the time, i have guys that i work with all the time, since i'm the main programmer, always saying to me "we should create our own CMS or Forum or Wiki type programs or our own javascript framework", and my rebuttal to them is always "why?"

time and energy that i would spend creating such things would distract me and take away from the things i do that make money all the software that we use for those are all done professionally, periodic updates and good priced (some of the ones we use are free, others that we use do cost but the ones that do cost are more than reasonable.)

the projects i talk about needing to merge are the more critical, specialized parts of a OS, like a sound system, its great that oss, alsa, phonom, pulse, etc, all compete with each other, but honestly, they fix each others deficiencies, but also at the same time, create new weak points that the other didn't have, so its a circle. i might be a programmer, but i don't have any exp programming a sound system, i can't imagine a whole lot do, so when several of these projects get started, with limited resources that they would have, i would imagine it would only be logical to merge them together to benefit the whole.

now for the desktops, Gnome and KDE are pretty solid (yes they both have problems and i would love to see more unity from them.) but some of these others that pop up randomly, they set a fire for a few years, then they burn out and become outdate and obsolete cause no one is working on them anymore, the time and energy spent on them could have went to one of the DE's or another project. thats all i'm saying about this subject, instead of redoing redundant work, why don't some of these guys figure out how they can help the exisitng projects or even distro's.

9. unified packages - one of the greatest selling points for me when it came to linux was the concept of the packages and repos. i agree with what they had to say in the video on this subject, and it goes with point 8. i'm not talking about package managers, i'm talking about the packages themselves, would arch run any different if it used deb packages? or would slackware be horrible if it is used rpm's?

they all do the same thing, but now we have split resources again, we have debian repo's, we have fedora repo's, we have arch repo's..etc.


final note.

don't get me wrong, i love linux, but it does have a long way to go before it is used by everyone, these are things i would like to see happen.
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post #14 of 61
ubuntu would probably be like de-facto standard

IF

it would cut back on the bleeding edge bull **** and run more stable releases less often... the thing i hated the most every time i tried to run ubuntu, id just get it set up the way i like, distro update comes... breaks everything :/

and it needs to SIMPLIFY!!!!! honestly ubuntu tries to be simple on the front end, but in doing so it makes everything complicated and error prone on the back end... its not hard to make both simple imo, you just wont please the 90yo grandmas who cant figure out what a package manager is
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Kinda meh now...
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post #15 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
@mushroomboy: I don't think we would need to get rid of all the variants if they could find something much more of solid ground. Maybe it's because I know so little about Linux but I view distros more as a change of packagemangager, repos, and philosophy/user mentality. I think if those were truly the among the few differences then Linux could explode in use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
Well, SLAX is entirely modular and super tiny without a huge memory foot print. But, you do have to grab each dependency yourself. And in SLAX regard, some programs don't clearly list what dependencies are just "suggested" and what ones are vital to the OS/programs.
The thing about this is that can be a huge difference besides just how they manage packages. When you start moving around libs and where they fit you start breaking vanilla packages. This is why nvidia + arch has problems building xorg. That's just one example, but there are many out there. This then starts to become more and more problematic as the distro starts to integrate those changes. You weren't here when the lib32/lib64 debate was going on. Oh jesus, people were talking **** and things got really messy for a while. I mean messy.

Should we have 32bit completely emulated into it's own userspace /ia32-libs/whatever or should we merge it into the lib dir with separate lib names. Creating a whole new package scheme? Should we have lib32/lib64 and no lib dir any more? Creating another package scheme. Create a lib32 and a lib dir? What happens when we update to lib128 (theory) and lib32 becomes obsolete. Do we have to make a lib64, if so why not now?

That's what you face when things change, a bunch of questions and everybody thinking their way is correct. It's a pile of dumb stubborn *******s who don't want to bend for the other person. Finally we had the answer come out, lib32/lib64 as you know it today. That took a couple years though to sort out for some distro's, all because of how they wanted to mange.... packages! Packages create the system, and everything in it. They set file permissions, where the files go, everything. So to say you need a unified package is to say you need a unified system.

We can't keep having these bs discussions about it. It needs to happen, we need to set the standard. I know linux is about freedom, but certain things need to be created as a standard. That's what hardware manufacturers did, they created standards so generic drivers can work on a lot of components. That's where the generic kernel comes from, running both AMD/Intel. Vesa drivers, ect... Though Nvidia has blessed us, mainly because there are those high end workstations for linux that I'm guessing has something to do with it. Nvidia saw a market, called it, and now owns it. You want good video in linux hands down it's Nvidia. All because they started driver support really well early off, so everything is "bias" towards it. Ack, tangent. =(

Slackware has the problem of not having package dependency. It's a curse and a blessing, but for today's world it's more a curse. You have two choices here: Spend time learning package dependencies - Spend time learning the system. Now, you can do both, no doubt. The thing is, it's much easier to specialize in a subject, mainly running the system. It's main nitch is Admins with OCD or Enthusiasts. Other than that it has little corporate function, as well as little desktop function. It can make for a server, but that's 1/3 the pie here. I'm not saying phase out those distro's, rather just pointing out they don't add anything to the linux hype. That's the problem! You get a person who says Slackware is rock solid, amazing, and the best thing ever.

Example:
End user downloads and installs Slackware, gets overwhelmed and hates linux. End user then goes to his friends and every time Linux is brought up he says it's crappy and hard to configure. It's called word of mouth, it works just like that, and it's not always good. So what do you do? Nothing, but you make sure End user hears about Ubuntu first (or something there of).

That's Slackware's downfall. It covers an extremely small space of Linux users when you compare it to RH/Debian/Ubuntu/openSUSE and so forth. While those users push Linux, and they are very good, the distro itself doesn't push growth. I'm not saying they should, just merely pointing out from a PR perspective that it does nothing positive.

The dude hit a lot of stuff right. The best thing we could ever hope for is Ubuntu (or something else real easy) getting itself on notebooks/laptops and being pushed as something you can use on the go that's quick and easy doing everything you need. We need Photoshop, we need Steam, and we need some more things to come in and get stuff rolling fast. Google has pushed hard and gotten itself it's own OS, but not only that it got it's OWN netbook. That's what you call getting things done, that's what we will need if we ever want to see this taken seriously.
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post #16 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EntTheGod View Post
it would cut back on the bleeding edge bull **** and run more stable releases less often...
If Ubuntu was any less "bleeding edge" it would be no newer than Debian Stable.
    
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post #17 of 61
well that is the biggest problem in this whole thing, trying to figure out who is best, i would say .deb packages and apt-get/synaptic has my vote for package and manager, as for Filesystem layout, for the most part they all do it the same way...i know they'd have to create a standard on that, this goes here and stays there...maybe linux needs a registry LOL(don't stone me please)

Quote:
Originally Posted by randomizer View Post
If Ubuntu was any less "bleeding edge" it would be no newer than Debian Stable.
no problem with bleeding edge, just make sure the ****e is stable, and works.
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post #18 of 61
He does this talk every year. This is disappointing compared to the last one that I had seen.

He doesn't cover too much and basically says he wants things his way. I'll let things come naturally and see what happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EntTheGod View Post
the bleeding edge bull ****
Ubuntu is not bleeding edge; nor CUTTING edge. It's simply put together sloppily and rushed for the release dates. Canonical does whatever they can to try and get things into their scheduled releases and have things work out of the box.
Edited by Jimi - 1/21/11 at 11:53pm
post #19 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi View Post
Ubuntu is not bleeding edge; nor CUTTING edge. It's simply put together sloppily and rushed for the release dates. Canonical does whatever they can to try and get things into their scheduled releases and have things work out of the box.
well... it does take some of the newest versions of some things that it shouldnt... such as its next release planning to use that horrid new gnome version :/
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post #20 of 61
Linux really needs open source 3D virtual surround sound for headphones.
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