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Maybe a Repost - but, Why Desktop Linux Sucks - Page 4

post #31 of 61
The biggest problem right now with the packaging system isn't the packages themselves, its the filesystem layout. Its an absolute mess, and there are 1000 different ways to install a package.

Packages are literally just a collection of files with a description of where to put them. Deb, RPM, Arch packages etc are all pretty much the same, and aside from a few naming conventions are completely interchangeable.


The problem occurs when you get programs like Firefox that will install its files to 5-6 different locations, so you have to go hunting through dozens of directories looking for anything named 'mozilla' or 'firefox'.

In Windows, programs go in Program Files, libraries go in System32, and personal files go in Users. Its so simple that anyone can figure it out.


Linux needs something like that. Just have one directory for 3rd party applications, one directory for libraries and includes, one directory for log files, and one directory for OS specific files. We don't need 5 different lib/bin/include folders in Linux. Its just stupid. Just have one /lib folder and branch it into sub directories as needed.

And make it standard, because then it wouldn't matter what package manager you use, since the files would all be going in the same place. The only difference would be in how they manage their repositories.
    
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post #32 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
The biggest problem right now with the packaging system isn't the packages themselves, its the filesystem layout. Its an absolute mess, and there are 1000 different ways to install a package.

Packages are literally just a collection of files with a description of where to put them. Deb, RPM, Arch packages etc are all pretty much the same, and aside from a few naming conventions are completely interchangeable.


The problem occurs when you get programs like Firefox that will install its files to 5-6 different locations, so you have to go hunting through dozens of directories looking for anything named 'mozilla' or 'firefox'.

In Windows, programs go in Program Files, libraries go in System32, and personal files go in Users. Its so simple that anyone can figure it out.


Linux needs something like that. Just have one directory for 3rd party applications, one directory for libraries and includes, one directory for log files, and one directory for OS specific files. We don't need 5 different lib/bin/include folders in Linux. Its just stupid. Just have one /lib folder and branch it into sub directories as needed.

And make it standard, because then it wouldn't matter what package manager you use, since the files would all be going in the same place. The only difference would be in how they manage their repositories.
i agree 100%

this seems to be the BIGGEST flaw in linux... even the same program done on two different distros can end up in extremely different places, and its not all organized and it makes stuff kinda hard to find for newer users

that is one of the biggest things that i hated when i started linux with ubuntu, yeah synaptic was awesome i could just add-remove stuff with total ease... but i had no clue where it was going and if i tried to look through the directories on my system for something i got COMPLETELY lost

and not only is this bad for users... its horrid for dependencies, it makes compiling packages for each distro much more complicated, and it can cause a lot of issues with how programs run and even cut off support entirely to less popular distros
Kinda meh now...
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Kinda meh now...
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post #33 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EntTheGod View Post
i agree 100%

this seems to be the BIGGEST flaw in linux... even the same program done on two different distros can end up in extremely different places, and its not all organized and it makes stuff kinda hard to find for newer users

that is one of the biggest things that i hated when i started linux with ubuntu, yeah synaptic was awesome i could just add-remove stuff with total ease... but i had no clue where it was going and if i tried to look through the directories on my system for something i got COMPLETELY lost

and not only is this bad for users... its horrid for dependencies, it makes compiling packages for each distro much more complicated, and it can cause a lot of issues with how programs run and even cut off support entirely to less popular distros
That's one of the reasons I don't care about dependencies like enorbet2. Yes it's good to know but then I would have lost out on learning debian directory structure. I know how debian itself runs, and that helps me out a lot. I also got to know how different applications interact, where files went, ect...

HOWEVER, I think we all agree on the same topic. We shouldn't have to learn these "rules" per distro. It would be amazing if everything worked vanilla like Slack and Gentoo. The reality is that it doesn't. I think this is something that would need to be discussed universally. Who knows, we might get there. Every year Linux gets more organized in this subject, but with such a huge dev base it's hard to communicate. This even goes inter-distro. It's hard for Debian dev teams to communicate flawlessly and things take time.

I guess we'll either have to get heavily involved or just wait it out. If I go back into programming and not Psych (still can't decide), I might try and pursue something. Ahh well, hope for the best eh? lol

[edit] Despite the thread title this hasn't turned into a hate war! lol
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post #34 of 61
A dedicated /program folder is bound to happen eventually, it's one of the fairly obvious improvements Linux could get.
    
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post #35 of 61
We're seeing more use of the /opt folder now, at least on Arch.
    
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post #36 of 61
/opt would be a good solution if we started setting restrictions for it now. I don't think userspace applications should go in there, that should still go in the /usr ect... Things like Gnome, KDE, stuff that can span the entire OS can go in there. Core files should of course stay out of both /opt and /usr, but yeah /opt could be very viable.
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post #37 of 61
(This is written from a general user perspective not a software maker's or someone on the level like all of you guys.)

My question on this "lay of the land" issue is whether this would open vulnerabilities more? If we had universal directions for where everything should install to such as /opt then would this now make it more feasible to create malicious programs since there is a common thread across all distros? I know I'm with you guys on the standards thing but if it introduces more risk I'm a bit apprehensive. Then again, if it helps fix how audio through ALSA works perfectly in KDE but not in Gnome (or other DEs) and other hardware issues I guess I'll be willing to risk it.

Maybe a starting point should be made. Like focusing on universal hardware support and standards regardless of distro and DE.

From my experience Linux's downfall hasn't been even the issue with getting software. I've shown it to people and some even ran it for a while and found getting software easier than in windows. What stopped most of them is getting every piece or at least the important pieces of hardware to work right. And the biggest culprits from what I've seen and heard are microphones, printers, video cards (though nivida not as much as ATI and even then I think Melcar has a good guide to spread on fixing ATI), RAID setups, and wifi cards. Out of those, I experience one daily and the other greatly limits my choices for distros on my netbook. At this point I don't even know what to blame for why I can have a working mic in a KDE environment while it won't work in Gnome; or why Fedora, openSUSE, and MeeGo work with my netbook's wifi card by default while the buntu's even after getting them the packages they ask for can not.

In a totally random thought. I swear talking about these hardware failures reminds me of the first four months of Vista when everyone had a reason to hate it and it was all because of hardware. Why hardware makers don't support Linux more is beyond me. Between having a customer who can't buy my hardware because they can't afford the cost of windows or OSX and having a customer who can buy my hardware because they can use a free OS; I don't see where there is a hard decision to be made.
     
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post #38 of 61
I agree. How it handles installed programs is a little stupid. The only good thing I like is that config files are stored in /home
    
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post #39 of 61
Sooo.... security through obscurity? Why don't we just do what Apple does with their iPods and just randomly distribute and rename all of the files on the OS so nobody can find them?
    
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post #40 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Sooo.... security through obscurity? Why don't we just do what Apple does with their iPods and just randomly distribute and rename all of the files on the OS so nobody can find them?
Well, you can find things from an iPod but you do have to look at file size, length, and likely just have to play some files to find the one you're looking for.

On topic: Like I've said before to the general user the problem with Linux is hardware. I'd say that if it is fixed then you'd probably have a large enough base that has growth were we could worry about standardizing other things to make life easier for software devs.
     
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