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Maybe a Repost - but, Why Desktop Linux Sucks - Page 6

post #51 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
It also depends on how Win8 and the "cloud" idea performs. It seems every new idea they have makes more and more people angry. lol Don't get me wrong, Win7 is great and all, but it's... For everything you can do on a Laptop it's a little much for some of these laptops comming out. Especially when a bunch of stuff has the GMA, which blows. Absolutely blows, and we all know it but it still gets put on laptops everywhere. =( lol
Windows 7 runs waaaaaay better than both stock Ubuntu and Ubuntu "netbook" remix. I had to put Xfce on my mother's netbook to get any noticeable improvement over Windows.
    
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post #52 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Windows 7 runs waaaaaay better than both stock Ubuntu and Ubuntu "netbook" remix. I had to put Xfce on my mother's netbook to get any noticeable improvement over Windows.
Off topic but: There is something wrong if that is the case. The only time I had a distro that was slower was when I ran UNR from a CD or tried Fedora. Outside of that I've never had a distro be as slow as any windows version on a netbook. Window's only redeeming quality for netbooks was the power saving features could not be matched but the performance was terrible.

On topic: So you guys are telling me that because of the directories where files are installed there are problems with hardware support? I don't get how that matters and now my head hurts. I'm just curious if you guys think that hardware support is the big issue. That's what it's seemed like from my experience but I'm still pretty new to this.
     
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post #53 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathris View Post
Windows 7 runs waaaaaay better than both stock Ubuntu and Ubuntu "netbook" remix. I had to put Xfce on my mother's netbook to get any noticeable improvement over Windows.
eh, i had windows 7 on my netbook and ubuntu, they ran about the same, boot up time wise, ubuntu had 7 beat hands down, and it took a lot longer to setup the power saving features in ubuntu, but once done, i don't think i've since booted into windows on the thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post

On topic: So you guys are telling me that because of the directories where files are installed there are problems with hardware support? I don't get how that matters and now my head hurts. I'm just curious if you guys think that hardware support is the big issue. That's what it's seemed like from my experience but I'm still pretty new to this.
i've seen it happen before, there was a time when the latest nvidia drivers wouldn't work with 10.10 beta of ubuntu, cause they had changed a folder location or name.

either nvidia adapted their driver installation to detect the new location or ubuntu switched the folders name or location back.

and this was a kernel issue, their was some sort of patch they had done that had changed the folder structure.
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post #54 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
eh, i had windows 7 on my netbook and ubuntu, they ran about the same, boot up time wise, ubuntu had 7 beat hands down, and it took a lot longer to setup the power saving features in ubuntu, but once done, i don't think i've since booted into windows on the thing.



i've seen it happen before, there was a time when the latest nvidia drivers wouldn't work with 10.10 beta of ubuntu, cause they had changed a folder location or name.

either nvidia adapted their driver installation to detect the new location or ubuntu switched the folders name or location back.

and this was a kernel issue, their was some sort of patch they had done that had changed the folder structure.
Another specific was when we didn't have multi-lib set up and 32bit lib emulation was different on every distro. In debian we had to system link /emu/linux-i386 (something like that) to /lib32 in order for everything to work correctly. This has happened multiple times in the past and I wouldn't doubt if it still does. When a fix happens and gets left there for more important fixes it gets forgotten, only to come back as a hidden problem later. Happens ALL the time. Unfortunately even though I say we need to stick to organization this will always happen, I bet it's the cause of some windows problems too. When dev teams get so big this is bound to happen.

[edit] Rookie: If a device driver requires the use of a specifc lib and can't find it things can break. This can give off errors that might make you think the device driver is broken, or it could tell you the lib is broken/missing. Thing is error reports aren't 100% accurate, so you have to guess. It took me days to figure out that damn /emu crap in debian because they had JUST moved to multi-lib. This shows up more in bleeding edge as where the more stable distro's don't have this because these problems are weeded out. It's why Debian is considered extremely stable, because the setup has to go through a long process to get into the "stable" branch. When you run Testing/Unstable like me you'll see all sorts of funny problems come up, only to think "why me". =P

[edit2] Also an example of my hardcoded lib paths being bad scenario. When a maintainer hard codes the device software to look for libs in a specific path instead of using the systems resources (the lazy way basically) it can cause these issues. The question becomes, is the device driver broken or is the distro incorrect? At the time it was neither, because multi-lib just came out, but it still didn't get me 32bit GLX extentions. =(
Edited by mushroomboy - 1/24/11 at 9:29am
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post #55 of 61
Why did all the hobo's attend this conference?
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post #56 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZainyAntics View Post
Why did all the hobo's attend this conference?
free food?
Kinda meh now...
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post #57 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Another specific was when we didn't have multi-lib set up and 32bit lib emulation was different on every distro. In debian we had to system link /emu/linux-i386 (something like that) to /lib32 in order for everything to work correctly. This has happened multiple times in the past and I wouldn't doubt if it still does. When a fix happens and gets left there for more important fixes it gets forgotten, only to come back as a hidden problem later. Happens ALL the time. Unfortunately even though I say we need to stick to organization this will always happen, I bet it's the cause of some windows problems too. When dev teams get so big this is bound to happen.

[edit] Rookie: If a device driver requires the use of a specifc lib and can't find it things can break. This can give off errors that might make you think the device driver is broken, or it could tell you the lib is broken/missing. Thing is error reports aren't 100% accurate, so you have to guess. It took me days to figure out that damn /emu crap in debian because they had JUST moved to multi-lib. This shows up more in bleeding edge as where the more stable distro's don't have this because these problems are weeded out. It's why Debian is considered extremely stable, because the setup has to go through a long process to get into the "stable" branch. When you run Testing/Unstable like me you'll see all sorts of funny problems come up, only to think "why me". =P

[edit2] Also an example of my hardcoded lib paths being bad scenario. When a maintainer hard codes the device software to look for libs in a specific path instead of using the systems resources (the lazy way basically) it can cause these issues. The question becomes, is the device driver broken or is the distro incorrect? At the time it was neither, because multi-lib just came out, but it still didn't get me 32bit GLX extentions. =(
I'm trying to get this; so you're telling me that because a dev will code to only look in one directory when they could have the OS look everywhere I end up with incorrectly identified hardware? Why would they do that in the first place? And this means that currently there isn't one directory dedicated to just hardware code and libraries like /etc ? I enjoy doing the terminal work to look around and all but when things are all over the place I don't have the time to search each and every sub directory and file for what I need to edit because I'm also spending the time trying to figure out the things to do in that edit to get hardware working.

Regardless of the all the other hardware issues I've mentioned the GPU, webcam, and mic/audio in general I see as the only major ones to overcome. I know I'm repeating myself but those things really are a big general user concern. I feel like I've wasted time when I have to get hardware working correctly; not so much when I have to tinker around to get software working.
     
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post #58 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rookie1337 View Post
I'm trying to get this; so you're telling me that because a dev will code to only look in one directory when they could have the OS look everywhere I end up with incorrectly identified hardware? Why would they do that in the first place? And this means that currently there isn't one directory dedicated to just hardware code and libraries like /etc ? I enjoy doing the terminal work to look around and all but when things are all over the place I don't have the time to search each and every sub directory and file for what I need to edit because I'm also spending the time trying to figure out the things to do in that edit to get hardware working.

Regardless of the all the other hardware issues I've mentioned the GPU, webcam, and mic/audio in general I see as the only major ones to overcome. I know I'm repeating myself but those things really are a big general user concern. I feel like I've wasted time when I have to get hardware working correctly; not so much when I have to tinker around to get software working.
This mainly happens when people mess with /lib and /usr/lib. I've had scenarios where they want stuff in /usr/lib and not in /lib. Unfortunately for me at the time I was putting things in /lib manually (cause debian didn't have the right files at the time). It kept driving me crazy, so what I did was I created a new dir and merged /lib + /usr/lib and made a softlink from both /lib and /usr/lib to this new dir. BAM, everything worked. I then realized they wanted the lib files put in /usr/lib for the GLX extentions.

Now why does this seem wrong? Shouldn't the OS search both /lib and /usr/lib to report libs for a querying program? You would think so, that the program should ask the OS for libs/files and the OS reports yes or no and points the program in the right direction. This is how MS works, though they don't have userspace/system differences. Unfortunately this isn't how Linux runs. It's much quicker to compile and run a program to search in a specific area. If the maintainer of a driver or piece of hardware decides he wants all his files put into /usr/lib for security reasons and the distro doesn't default you then get broken crap. That becomes the problem. My nvidia drivers might be installed in /lib, as they should be. Lets say a program expects my drivers to be in /usr/lib and gives me the output that my GLX is broken or non-existent (because it can't find the libs). I'm then going to think my hardware is broke, only to find out the system has things in a different order. Now, is this directly hardware? Probably not, but since the program is going to spit out a hardware error it's going to be lumped as a hardware bug.

I could do many different scenarios I've seen over the years. These don't happen nearly as often as dependency problems or simple hardware failures. This is also generally due to stuff that isn't kernel integrated or hardware features (such as GLX). Usually your hardware still works, but just crippled.

[edit] A big reason for directly linking to locations is latency. This becomes more so with Audio, you want the lowest latency possible. You do this by removing anything that could hinter how the audio is routing. So instead of using ld you directly link to the audio files and build that into the program. ALSA had huge problems in the past with latency and some people were doing this. Though I haven't actually payed huge attention over the years, most of my problems were 5+ years ago. A lot of this has changed and people have started to do things for most hardware at a reasonable standard. Over the past 5 years or so hardware support has become amazing compared to what it was.

[edit] Think of it this way, hardware drivers provide a front. /dev/dsp for your sound is a good example. Now lets take that /dev/dsp and use it by the system. /dev/dsp alone gives you nothing without a way to interface with that. You could do direct interface, but then we get the OSS problem of /dev/dsp being locked by whatever program was using it. Ok, so we decided to create mixing! Now through libs we have created /dev/mixer that interacts with /dev/dsp! Great you say, I can hear sound from 2 programs. What you don't know is that mixing support is dependent on libs. You get a lib failure, due to in proper structure, bad coding, hard coding things poorly, you get a hardware failure of no sound. What do you think libalsa/libasound gives you? It's there as a layer of interaction between the kernel driver (module) and the software that wants to use that driver.
Edited by mushroomboy - 1/24/11 at 11:41am
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post #59 of 61
Thread Starter 
Meetings like this have probably been going on for years. This does look like some of the distro's are trying to get together on some form of a unified package.

http://news.opensuse.org/2011/01/26/...cross-borders/
post #60 of 61
LOL I got pretty much identified with the nVIDIA drivers... I had reinstalled Ubuntu over, and over, and OVER again because of X-interface failing and destroying the whole thing.

Crap.
   
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AMD A10-5700 Gigabyte F2A75M-HD2 G.SKILL Ares 2133 CL9 Hitachi 5K750 
Hard DriveCoolingOSMonitor
Momentus .7 200GB Noctua NH-L9a Server 2012 R2 Standard AUO B156HW01 
PowerCaseOther
PicoPSU-80-WI-25V AIO Aluminium Handmade TP-Link Archer Something Something Wi-Fi AC 
CPUCPUCPUMotherboard
Core2Duo E6400 Core2Quad Q6600 Pentium Dual Core E5200 AsRock 4COREDUAL-SATA2 R2.0 
GraphicsRAMHard DriveOptical Drive
A dumpload of ancient AGP cards Kingston Value DDR2-667 CL4 2T @CL3 1T Seagate 160GB 7200.10 LG IDE DVD-ROM 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Ghettomade CPU waterblock 49cc 2stroke engine copper radiator WinXP SP2 32bit ProView 17" 
PowerCase
Tacens Radix V 550W Ghetto aluminium bench 
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