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post #16211 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post


If you're getting 4-5LP then it means your MMR is a lot lower than your rank, which means you're actually in a much higher league than you deserve to be in.
1) Yes there are, and I came across next to none in my ~30 games getting my account from bronze to silver. There will be a lot more if your account is new and your MMR isn't stable yet.
2) Do you think nobody on my team fed in any of those Elise games? You just have to get more fed and take objectives/map control so they can't snowball.
3) You're in bronze 2. You're below the 40th percentile in NA, 2 out of 3 players are ranked higher than you. I'm not saying yuo don't get bad teams, I'm saying you belong in bronze, and getting bad teams isn't the reason you're there.
4) Out of those ~25 games as Elise (or 100 random teammates), do you think I just happened to get "carryable" teammates every game? No, I had people go 0-5 in their lanes. I just know how to win games, not get cocky when I'm ahead, etc.

Matchmaking is pretty horrible. That doesn't change any of this.

Solo queue isn't just learning how to play, you also have to know how to carry and win games by yourself.
I get what your saying, but as previously mentioned in this discussion. The majority of players do not have the time to master the game like that. Thing like family, job, real life... etc... come into play when 1 game takes anywhere from 20-45 minutes. Anyway, I do get what you are saying, but I think it speaks to a level more of a diamond-challenger status than a bronze-gold. Silver players are similar to bronze, in that they still aren't good, but they know the game. Gold players still aren't good (as a whole), but they know how to play the game and know their characters. This is from my observations. I am far from being anywhere near "good", and don't know every facet of the game yet (ie I still make mistakes mid/late game that I shouldn't be making given a variable in the game that I wasn't paying as close attention to as I should have), but regardless, my point is that there is night and day difference between a player like me, and a player that is just horribly bad because either they have constant distractions so they go afk, they are legally blind, or whatever other reasons there may be...

Also, hero pool is a HUGE issue as well. Someone like elise is ridiculously overpowered in the hands of someone that knows what to do with her when playing against a bunch of baddies, but in the hands of a bronze noob, shes next to useless and an easy kill.

I dunno, I mean obviously the only thing I can take away from this entire conversation, from what you and others have provided is this: "You belong in bronze because your in bronze. get better, and carry 2/1 win ratio to keep moving up in rank and carry your 2/3 promos to get out of silver".

Maybe it's just me, but that logic just sounds completely absurd for a game that emphasizes team play. If i'm 1100 elo, and im playing with everyone on my team who is ~800, and the entire other team is 1000 elo players... common sense says they are probably going to win and 1100 elo isn't enough experience to beat them and carry the entire team every single time i want to play a 45 minute game...

p.s. since 1100 my elo has dropped to just under 900 now... so i stopped playing ranked completely out of frustration.

It's simple, progression in solo queue for points should be based on individual achievement, not on team wins. When you get to promo's THEN it should be more team oriented. How will this work? Because only the better players will get enough points to make it to the promos, thereby creating more solid teams with players who take it seriously.

Just my spitting crap obviously, but there is no use to try to climb out of bronze in my mind. I can win 5 games in a row, but if I lose 2 promos all those points get taken away, then I still need a 2/1 win ratio to SLOWLY climb back just to promos again... It really is stupid
post #16212 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post

Where have I been proven wrong?

I was one of those players. I carried up to plat easily because I figured out a couple of the things I was doing wrong and improved on them, so my gameplay got much better very quickly. Also I never said anything about "silver hell".

Being a bit better doesn't mean you should be able to carry every bronze game, but if you're actually much better than bronze, you can carry out of it easily.

Silver 1/Gold V is miles better than Bronze.

If your bot goes 0-10 then you shuold have done something to shut down the other bot.

A gold player absolutely can bronze stomp - I've done it plenty of times back when I was G4/G5, and yes, as both ADC and support.

If you're getting 4-5LP then it means your MMR is a lot lower than your rank, which means you're actually in a much higher league than you deserve to be in.

The countless times other Diamond / plat players have agreed with those in near bronze hell, the pull down is ridiculous, these players shouldn't be ALLOWED to queue for ranked, but not for you so you are sure it doesn't exist. Because you have to CARRY people much worse than you to get near the level your skill is at, the only way to do it is to climb in small LP gains over losses differential.

I've never had issues being out of bronze, in fact I've never been placed in bronze, my issue is riot places 3 bronze 3 players with me, against 3 S1 players and does that 3 games in a row, absolutely tanking my MMR and LP in one VERY fast fell swoop.

S1 is / gold 5 has some map awareness and a general knowledge that leeroying is bad, mmmkay. That is about the only difference I've seen between gold 5 and bronze1 players and everything in between.

Tell me, oh so omniscient one how do I stop my 50% of the time random stupid bot from playing aggressively against a team they already are 0-4. If there was anything I could do about it, I would have, but I need my own farm, and me being there would serve no purpose with the lane pushed up against the enemy turret for 10 minutes (Yea, they ARE that bad, and don't listen when you say don't push).

You weren't a gold player, you were a diamond player climbing through gold. You already stated you shot right up through silver gold and plat. I don't know how much time you have to play but congrats, you're probably substantially better than me. You're also wrong, but that is what you seem to have an issue facing.

You misread, or don't understand what differential means. That means my gain is 22-24 LP per win, and my loss is 16-18LP per loss which would be a 4-5 LP differential.

But in all seriousness, if you think you understand the system so much, explain to me why I had my placement matches against high gold and low plat players, went 8 for 10 on wins with 80% or higher kill participation from jungle and only 3-4 deaths max, continued the same way for ~ 10 games while I promo'd to s3 from s5, then got 11matches in a row of bronze 2 OR BELOW teammates which took me right back down to S5. Really, explain it to me, because I really don't know HOW to play with bronze players who have such a lack of knowledge of the game and strategy, who don't listen to pings, and feed kills to enemies with reckless abandon. When I'm paired with them, its almost a guaranteed loss.

EDIT: The one thing I didn't mention which is somewhat the elephant in the room, is most lower end players are stuck with small champ pools, I wonder if you had all the FOTM in -meta champions when you shot up in rankings. I have a small pool, and I have a feeling that is hurting me as well.
Edited by Avonosac - 3/11/14 at 9:44pm
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post #16213 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by likethegun View Post

I get what your saying, but as previously mentioned in this discussion. The majority of players do not have the time to master the game like that.

And that's completely fine, but then to turn around and say "crappy teammates are holding me back" is ridiculous.
Quote:
Also, hero pool is a HUGE issue as well. Someone like elise is ridiculously overpowered in the hands of someone that knows what to do with her when playing against a bunch of baddies, but in the hands of a bronze noob, shes next to useless and an easy kill.

I agree. So if you don't have time to either get a decent pool of heroes or learn one hero really well (I carried myself from gold I to almost diamond playing solely Elise), then you just aren't going to get high up in the rankings.
Quote:
I dunno, I mean obviously the only thing I can take away from this entire conversation, from what you and others have provided is this: "You belong in bronze because your in bronze. get better, and carry 2/1 win ratio to keep moving up in rank and carry your 2/3 promos to get out of silver".

Maybe it's just me, but that logic just sounds completely absurd for a game that emphasizes team play. If i'm 1100 elo, and im playing with everyone on my team who is ~800, and the entire other team is 1000 elo players... common sense says they are probably going to win and 1100 elo isn't enough experience to beat them and carry the entire team every single time i want to play a 45 minute game...

There's a huge gigantic overlap between leagues though. "Better than bronze" is like... Silver 3ish, that's where you stop going against bronze players regularly. That isn't a difference of 100 Elo, and a mid-high silver player will be able to carry themselves (obviously not with a 90%+ win rate, probably closer to 60% or so) out of bronze.
Quote:
p.s. since 1100 my elo has dropped to just under 900 now... so i stopped playing ranked completely out of frustration.

It's simple, progression in solo queue for points should be based on individual achievement, not on team wins. When you get to promo's THEN it should be more team oriented. How will this work? Because only the better players will get enough points to make it to the promos, thereby creating more solid teams with players who take it seriously.

Just my spitting crap obviously, but there is no use to try to climb out of bronze in my mind. I can win 5 games in a row, but if I lose 2 promos all those points get taken away, then I still need a 2/1 win ratio to SLOWLY climb back just to promos again... It really is stupid

There's no reliable way to measure individual performance. Team performance is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avonosac View Post

The countless times other Diamond / plat players have agreed with those in near bronze hell, the pull down is ridiculous, these players shouldn't be ALLOWED to queue for ranked, but not for you so you are sure it doesn't exist. Because you have to CARRY people much worse than you to get near the level your skill is at, the only way to do it is to climb in small LP gains over losses differential.

Other people disagreeing is proof? I disagree with them, does that mean that they're proven wrong? Also I've learned most of what I'm saying from listening to Challenger streamers.
Quote:
I've never had issues being out of bronze, in fact I've never been placed in bronze, my issue is riot places 3 bronze 3 players with me, against 3 S1 players and does that 3 games in a row, absolutely tanking my MMR and LP in one VERY fast fell swoop.

Usually the result of a duo, which are problems.
Quote:
S1 is / gold 5 has some map awareness and a general knowledge that leeroying is bad, mmmkay. That is about the only difference I've seen between gold 5 and bronze1 players and everything in between.

Then you haven't been watching very well.
Quote:
Tell me, oh so omniscient one how do I stop my 50% of the time random stupid bot from playing aggressively against a team they already are 0-4. If there was anything I could do about it, I would have, but I need my own farm, and me being there would serve no purpose with the lane pushed up against the enemy turret for 10 minutes (Yea, they ARE that bad, and don't listen when you say don't push).

Dive them. You're better than the other team, so you should be higher level with more gold than most of them. Force objectives while their lane is stuck at their tower. Use your lane pushing to bait out ganks and countergank.
Quote:
You weren't a gold player, you were a diamond player climbing through gold. You already stated you shot right up through silver gold and plat. I don't know how much time you have to play but congrats, you're probably substantially better than me. You're also wrong, but that is what you seem to have an issue facing.

You think I instantly went from silver to diamond level? I didn't even start timing my buffs until I hit high gold. I still don't know half the lane matchups. I'm not diamond (but I could be with a bit of practice).
Quote:
You misread, or don't understand what differential means. That means my gain is 22-24 LP per win, and my loss is 16-18LP per loss which would be a 4-5 LP differential.

And if you only have a 50% win rate (which should be the minimum if you're actually better than your League), then you'll still be gaining ranks.
Quote:
But in all seriousness, if you think you understand the system so much, explain to me why I had my placement matches against high gold and low plat players, went 8 for 10 on wins with 80% or higher kill participation from jungle and only 3-4 deaths max, continued the same way for ~ 10 games while I promo'd to s3 from s5, then got 11matches in a row of bronze 2 OR BELOW teammates which took me right back down to S5. Really, explain it to me, because I really don't know HOW to play with bronze players who have such a lack of knowledge of the game and strategy, who don't listen to pings, and feed kills to enemies with reckless abandon. When I'm paired with them, its almost a guaranteed loss.

Sounds like you had one game with high gold/low plat players and for some reason think all of your games were, and then you couldn't carry crappy teams (which you have to know how to do to progress far in solo queue) and dropped back down. Like you just said, you don't know how to play with those kind of players.
Quote:
EDIT: The one thing I didn't mention which is somewhat the elephant in the room, is most lower end players are stuck with small champ pools, I wonder if you had all the FOTM in -meta champions when you shot up in rankings. I have a small pool, and I have a feeling that is hurting me as well.

I played Graves from Silver whatever to Gold V, switched roles and played only Maokai from Gold V to Gold I, and solely Elise from Gold I to Plat I. No other heroes at all except when I didn't get jungle (then I usually just lost because I don't know many others anymore).
Edited by Fortunex - 3/12/14 at 12:41am
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post #16214 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Narokuu View Post

I was finally able to get Medical help, and Franbunny knew how bad i needed it

Now i think i can focus and play league or DOTA2 and enjoy it. IM excited

/hugs
post #16215 of 17789
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Originally Posted by FranBunnyFFXII View Post

/hugs


Thanks Fran, means a lot. you really knew what was going on.
post #16216 of 17789
Guys, im thinking about changing my AD runes from 15 ad to 7+ and 6% lifesteal. rest will be unchanged, resists and armor. Is it worth it in S4 to do that change?
post #16217 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by prznar1 View Post

Guys, im thinking about changing my AD runes from 15 ad to 7+ and 6% lifesteal. rest will be unchanged, resists and armor. Is it worth it in S4 to do that change?

Depends on the champ you're playing and your support: If you have a sustain type support, I would go with the AD and someone who harasses a lot (Caitlyn or Twitch would be great on this) I would have both rune books available when ranking. However as Diamond ADC, - I run 8 AD marks and 1 crit mark (random crits happen way more then you think in lane) 1 AD quint and 2 LS quints and then resistances. I swear by the 1 crit mark - especially if you get the mastery to increase your attack speed after a crit strike. If you notice you landed a crit, it's a good time to take advantage of that in lane. thumb.gif


As for this elo stuff - No one is commenting on the points I was making so I assume it's a no argument scenario that lower tiers are harder to carry out of then they need to be. If you're a low gold - silver in skill player, and stuck in Bronze - It's still much harder to 'go up' then it is to be playing in the Gold/Silver range at your respected level. Some people do, indeed deserve to be Bronze if they're a Bronze player and don't quite understand the game very well or have a pretty low champion pool or weak in all but say, one lane. However, there ARE people who don't deserve to be in Bronze or even Silver but had a very very rough time getting out it. It does hold true that your promotion series throws you with terribads quite often and you must bring that A game if you want to win.

My advice in Bronze/Silver and even Gold is to play a Jungle and go win every lane for your team. That was the easiest way for me, followed by playing my main role as an ADC where, well... you just have to make plays. I found playing an AP carry the easiest to 'dominate' the lane, but as an AP Carry, it's much harder to wreck a whole team and get objectives by yourself. That's why jungles, ADC carrys or bruisers that snowball well (Jayce, Riven, J4, Nasus) can hyper carry and when games because of how quick they can take objectives.

The only champ I would recommend playing in mid to carry out of tiers would be TF. He's not a strong laner but if you keep an eye on your jungle, gank when he does and make it a 4v2 or a 3v1 every time you have ulti up. Work on team comps a lot, you'd be surprised on how much of a difference that makes
     
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post #16218 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post

Where have I been proven wrong?

I was one of those players. I carried up to plat easily because I figured out a couple of the things I was doing wrong and improved on them, so my gameplay got much better very quickly. Also I never said anything about "silver hell".

Being a bit better doesn't mean you should be able to carry every bronze game, but if you're actually much better than bronze, you can carry out of it easily.

Silver 1/Gold V is miles better than Bronze.

If your bot goes 0-10 then you shuold have done something to shut down the other bot.

A gold player absolutely can bronze stomp - I've done it plenty of times back when I was G4/G5, and yes, as both ADC and support.

If you're getting 4-5LP then it means your MMR is a lot lower than your rank, which means you're actually in a much higher league than you deserve to be in.
1) Yes there are, and I came across next to none in my ~30 games getting my account from bronze to silver. There will be a lot more if your account is new and your MMR isn't stable yet.
2) Do you think nobody on my team fed in any of those Elise games? You just have to get more fed and take objectives/map control so they can't snowball.
3) You're in bronze 2. You're below the 40th percentile in NA, 2 out of 3 players are ranked higher than you. I'm not saying yuo don't get bad teams, I'm saying you belong in bronze, and getting bad teams isn't the reason you're there.
4) Out of those ~25 games as Elise (or 100 random teammates), do you think I just happened to get "carryable" teammates every game? No, I had people go 0-5 in their lanes. I just know how to win games, not get cocky when I'm ahead, etc.

Matchmaking is pretty horrible. That doesn't change any of this.

Solo queue isn't just learning how to play, you also have to know how to carry and win games by yourself.

so when my bot is 0-10, and top is 0-5, and mid is 0-3, and none of them ward, then what do i do? magically split into 3 junglers and win each lane for them?

games in bronze implode so fast, sometimes you dont have time to do damage control. ive had countless games where people literally give up after FB. AFTER FB!!!. you are speaking as if we are all diamond players and anything lower deserves to be bronze. its maddening and is also a really common mindset in LoL, which contributes to the endless flaming and league shaming on the LoL forums. i dont know how to say this nicely, but you are the typical league of legends player that i cant stand. sorry, no offense intended, but seriously, you guys are mental.
post #16219 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimlaheysadrunk View Post

so when my bot is 0-10, and top is 0-5, and mid is 0-3, and none of them ward, then what do i do? magically split into 3 junglers and win each lane for them?

games in bronze implode so fast, sometimes you dont have time to do damage control. ive had countless games where people literally give up after FB. AFTER FB!!!. you are speaking as if we are all diamond players and anything lower deserves to be bronze. its maddening and is also a really common mindset in LoL, which contributes to the endless flaming and league shaming on the LoL forums. i dont know how to say this nicely, but you are the typical league of legends player that i cant stand. sorry, no offense intended, but seriously, you guys are mental.

Knowing how to snowball lanes and make it impossible for your lane to lose, no matter how dumb they are, is important. If you gank the lane once and then go gank somewhere else, the other player is just going to farm better or get a gank and end up even again. You have to gank them 2-3 times and put them miles behind and then buy wards for your lanes and ward for them, because they obviously can't do it. As a jungle you should always have at least one ward on you. In lower level games I frequently buy 2-3 wards every time I go back (and I can afford to because I'm wrecking the enemy team).

The wards are more for your information than your teammate's though (because they don't look at the map anyways). You see their jungler ganking your top? Ping it and then go do dragon. See their jungler bot? Dive their top and take the tower, or head down to contest dragon after your bot dies, or take their red, etc.

If your bot is 0-10, top is 0-5, and mid is 0-3, it sounds like their jungler has been wreaking havoc. What have you been doing to stop them or offset their lead? Counter ganking? Taking their buffs? Taking objectives? If you think that every single lane losing without help from their jungler is a common thing, then you need to watch games more carefully.

The best way to improve in League is to completely ignore your team and how they messed up and examine what you could have done to prevent that. Do you think a challenger player is ever going to lose a game in bronze? Of course not. So focus on how you can improve and what you could have done better to prevent or make up for your team's poor playing. Even when I was playing in plat I, that's how I thought. I know that a challenger player would stomp this league with a 70-80% win rate, so why am I blaming my team when my win rate is only 55-60%? Obviously I can be playing better.
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post #16220 of 17789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fortunex View Post

Knowing how to snowball lanes and make it impossible for your lane to lose, no matter how dumb they are, is important. If you gank the lane once and then go gank somewhere else, the other player is just going to farm better or get a gank and end up even again. You have to gank them 2-3 times and put them miles behind and then buy wards for your lanes and ward for them, because they obviously can't do it. As a jungle you should always have at least one ward on you. In lower level games I frequently buy 2-3 wards every time I go back (and I can afford to because I'm wrecking the enemy team).

The wards are more for your information than your teammate's though (because they don't look at the map anyways). You see their jungler ganking your top? Ping it and then go do dragon. See their jungler bot? Dive their top and take the tower, or head down to contest dragon after your bot dies, or take their red, etc.

If your bot is 0-10, top is 0-5, and mid is 0-3, it sounds like their jungler has been wreaking havoc. What have you been doing to stop them or offset their lead? Counter ganking? Taking their buffs? Taking objectives? If you think that every single lane losing without help from their jungler is a common thing, then you need to watch games more carefully.

The best way to improve in League is to completely ignore your team and how they messed up and examine what you could have done to prevent that. Do you think a challenger player is ever going to lose a game in bronze? Of course not. So focus on how you can improve and what you could have done better to prevent or make up for your team's poor playing. Even when I was playing in plat I, that's how I thought. I know that a challenger player would stomp this league with a 70-80% win rate, so why am I blaming my team when my win rate is only 55-60%? Obviously I can be playing better.

Good information, I have been reading a lot and following challenger twitch to get more information, but you have some flaws in your statements I've bolded above.

About the jungles, sadly.. no. When I get teamed with b2/3 players the enemy jungle generally does even worse than I do, its just the lanes lose so badly you quite literally need to be supporting all 3 lanes simultaneously.

True, the introspection of most players who want to get better doesn't come across well here, but then again you constantly say its all your fault to the players dismissing the issues which mostly surround MMR and the terrible way that league queues you with other players. You offend people because you have time / current skill level so far above their issues, that you say its all their fault they can't rise. When really it is they can't rise within the system because it presses undue strain on their lives to PLAY enough to rise.

The real issue seems to be that the MMR system purposefully gives you a series of matches you are supposed to lose but the problem is, especially at the low levels those losses take as much LP as one where you get 0-10 feeder with an AFK, forcing you to play MANY matches to climb quickly, and I would wager a guess that most people who really are stuck in leagues / matches below their skill level, don't play enough games a day for real progress to be made.

You made a statement earlier, saying I took 1 match with gold / plat players to mean I was playing at that level. I wasn't. In my placement matches, after my 3rd match I was the only silver on the board, after the 5th match there was 2 golds 2 plats and me. If i had a team who I could reliably feed from jungle without undue risk, and stupid over extension of their lane, I would be able to climb. In fact, in most of my match history, all I require is a lane capable of holding on long enough to get ganks, and setting up the adc/ top / mid to snowball.

I'm not sure if you really mean I should forgo my own farm, to sit on a lane which is losing 2v2 without jungle support but continuing to be aggressive, to camp 2 champs under their own turret, especially early game. You can't dive that. The only possible outcome I see for that is to turn a double kill into a triple kill.

In all seriousness, do you remember how bad players in bronze are? What would you suggest I do to the aggressive feeding bot lane who keeps shoving the lane and standing under the enemy turret, how do I fix that to not lose.

I keep using this example because it is beyond common, bot lanes seem to be my Achilles heel, my top and mids are almost always ok, and I get them fed fine, but bottom feeds when no enemy jungle even shows up.
Edited by Avonosac - 3/12/14 at 11:11am
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Nightrider
(17 items)
 
Commodore 64
(10 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3930k x79 gd45 PLUS GTX Titan Crucial Ballistix Sport VLP  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
HyperX 3k Intel 320 Seagate Barracuda Swifttech H220 
CoolingCoolingOSOS
Swifttech 220QP Corsair SP120 Windows 8.1 Pro Windows 10 Pro 
OSOSMonitorMonitor
Windows 7 Home Ubuntu 15.4 QNIX 2710 Catleap 2B 
Keyboard
Ducky - Cherry MX Red 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3570k DZ77GA - 70K GTX670-DC2-4GD5  MV-3V4G3D/US 
Hard DriveCoolingOSOS
HyperX 3k CM 212 + Win 7 64 ubuntu 
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Seventeam 850w modular CS-NT-ZERO-2  
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