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post #271 of 761
I found an interesting discussion regarding the Pentium 4 and the HD3850, they also talk about the X1950Pro, it's a good reference as there are many different opinions in there. Some say they can run Crysis at High Settings without bottlenecks on the HD3850, some say it will bottleneck.

Anyway, here it is.
 
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post #272 of 761
Ok, I had this little wish list on my mind for a few days and thought it would be useful to have a post with a perfect Pentium 4 system. The Pentium 4 really deserves that someone, some day, builds something like this.

I chose the Northwood/Gallatin, as it is the all-round best, socket 478, of course; the 775 was thought for Dual-Cores and Quad-Cores. Anyway, you only get a Max of 3.8 Ghz clockspeed out of a Cedar Mill P4 on the Socket 775 system, compared to the 3.4 Ghz Northwood/Gallatin on the 478 socket.

If we take into account that the 3.46 Ghz Gallatin, 775 based, Pentium 4 Extreme Edition - still built on 130nm process (they essentially migrated the 3.4 Ghz 478 Extreme Edition to the 775 platform - the difference being that the 775 version uses a 1066Mhz FSB instead of an 800Mhz FSB, and hence the slightly higher 3.46 clockspeed too) - was generally faster than the 3.73 Ghz Pentium 4 EE Cedar Mill with 2MB of L2 cache, I guess that says it all.


So, here it goes:

- CPU: Pentium 4 Gallatin 3.4 Ghz Extreme Edition, 2MB L3 Cache;

- CPU cooler: Scythe Katana 3

- CPU Fan: Noise Blocker - has excellent airflow and does not make intrusive noise at max RPM. (this CPU Fan item is optional, in case the Motherboard does not have PWM fan control in the BIOS, as the stock fan is loud at it's max 2700 rpm.)

- Motherboard: Gigabyte 875P chipset, 4 DDR slots, 4GB Max Memory, 4 Sata ports;

- RAM: 4GB (4x1GB) or 3GB (2x1GB + 2x 512MB) DDR533 RAM from Kingston or another reputable brand.
Given that the GPU's memory and other system components are mapped onto the main memory and thus you will never access the full 4GB of memory, that is the reason I also put 3GB into the equation;

-GPU: ATI Radeon HD3850 512MB AGP or HD4670 512MB or 1GB AGP; beware some vendors sold the HD3850 512MB version with slower clocked memory compared to the 256MB version. Whether the HD3850 is faster than the HD4670 is the main question here. The first has slower clocks on the GPU and RAM, but it does have a 256-bit memory bus; on the other hand, the HD4670 can be overclocked more easily, uses less energy and has more functionality, like Hardware Acceleration of HD Flash Videos (Youtube, for example);

- Boot Disk: an SSD. Something like a Crucial RealSSD 64GB or a Kingston SSDNow V+100 96GB. Does not need to be the fastest on the planet because most SSD's already saturate the Sata 1 interface and that would be wasting money for performance you wouldn't get. So, something like those above is more than enough (and cheaper, too!);

- Storage Drive:: Something like a 1TB HDD 72000rpm, two platter design (or even single platter in the future), or a single platter 640GB 7200rpm HDD. A WD Caviar Black, for example (I'm not sure they make single platter 640GB HDD's yet though) - or even two in RAID.

- Soundcard: Sound Blaster Audigy 4 Pro: features hardware acceleration for better performance in games (offloads the sound processing from the CPU ). Mind that the hardware acceleration feature does not work under Windows Vista and Windows 7 because Microsoft removed hardware acceleration for sound processing;

- Optical drive: DVD-RW Sata Drive or even a Blu-Ray drive;

- Optional: Multi card reader, floppy drive, TV tuner;

- Operating System:: As said above, Windows 7 does not have hardware acceleration for sound, so performance in games will not be as good, adding to the somewhat bigger overhead Windows 7 has compared to XP (even though sometimes it has no impact); on the other hand, Windows XP does not have TRIM support for SSD drives - but newer drives do have internal garbage collection mechanisms too. Windows 7 does have more functionality and better looks so I'd probably have a dual boot to get the best out of both worlds.

- PSU: A quality 400w - 550w 80 Plus or better PSU is enough;

- Case: The Scythe Katana 3 pushes hot air towards the top of the case, so it's not very advisable to get a traditional case where the PSU is top mounted, as that would get lots of hot air through the PSU and that is not a very good idea. A case with a bottom mounted PSU AND ventilation at the top of the case with at least the option to add a fan to push air outside the top of the case; otherwise a lot of hot air will get trapped inside the case as the back exhaust fan can't pull all the hot air out. This is based on personal experience.

So, for anyone interested, this is probably the perfect Pentium 4 Socket 478 AGP Based system. Add a nice 24' monitor and a nice sound system to do the Audigy 4 Pro some justice, and you've got the perfect legacy Pentium 4 system.
Edited by tpi2007 - 3/26/11 at 12:30pm
 
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post #273 of 761
I'll jump in, and for my first post. I have a few Pentium 4s.

My best one is a Pentium 4 641 (3.2GHz, 800MHz FSB, Cedar Mill, 2MB L2 cache, 64-bit, 65nm, Hyper-threading). I've overclocked it to 4.5GHz with supreme ease, yet getting it much higher has been met with supreme difficulty. It's like there's no curve. It's a straight line of ease and then a brick wall (it might go slightly above 4.5GHz but that's where I settled). RAM and motherboard aren't the limit, I'm all but sure (as it does a higher FSB with two Core 2 Duos). Heat is getting up there but shouldn't stop an outright POST. Vcore was thrown at it (to a degree) so I don't know. Either it needed a whole lot more Vcore or something else was amiss. I'll have to try it again someday. It's not in use right now though. It was just toyed around with in my primary PC.





That's at stock (I thought I had some from the overclock, but I guess not), but it shows it runs nice and cool. That's under one of these, a Xigmatek s-1283 with retention bracket.



My Core 2, for comparison, runs no lower than 29C no matter the frequency/Vcore with the same cooling (it might actually go lower, but the sensors only reflect 29C or higher on that CPU).

My other Pentium 4, which is actually in use, is a more typical socket 478 2.8GHz variant (Northwood, 800MHz FSB, Hyper-threading). It's paired with a GeForce 6800 GS AGP and 2GB DDR RAM.

I also have a socket 478 Prescott, again 2.8GHz, but it has a 533MHz FSB and lacks Hyper-threading. It is not in use. The Northwood above replaced it.

I also had a 2.26GHz Northwood (533MHz FSB) at one point, but it got some bent pins and was tossed.

Nice to see the Pentium 4, though far from the best CPU, still in use even with those of us who have moved on so much faster. I was beginning to think I was one of the only ones using one.
post #274 of 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Garnet View Post
I'll jump in, and for my first post. I have a few Pentium 4s.

My best one is a Pentium 4 641 (3.2GHz, 800MHz FSB, Cedar Mill, 2MB L2 cache, 64-bit, 65nm, Hyper-threading). I've overclocked it to 4.5GHz with supreme ease, yet getting it much higher has been met with supreme difficulty. It's like there's no curve. It's a straight line of ease and then a brick wall (it might go slightly above 4.5GHz but that's where I settled). RAM and motherboard aren't the limit, I'm all but sure (as it does a higher FSB with two Core 2 Duos). Heat is getting up there but shouldn't stop an outright POST. Vcore was thrown at it (to a degree) so I don't know. Either it needed a whole lot more Vcore or something else was amiss. I'll have to try it again someday. It's not in use right now though. It was just toyed around with in my primary PC.





That's at stock (I thought I had some from the overclock, but I guess not), but it shows it runs nice and cool. That's under one of these, a Xigmatek s-1283 with retention bracket.



My Core 2, for comparison, runs no lower than 29C no matter the frequency/Vcore with the same cooling (it might actually go lower, but the sensors only reflect 29C or higher on that CPU).

My other Pentium 4, which is actually in use, is a more typical socket 478 2.8GHz variant (Northwood, 800MHz FSB, Hyper-threading). It's paired with a GeForce 6800 GS AGP and 2GB DDR RAM.

I also have a socket 478 Prescott, again 2.8GHz, but it has a 533MHz FSB and lacks Hyper-threading. It is not in use. The Northwood above replaced it.

I also had a 2.26GHz Northwood (533MHz FSB) at one point, but it got some bent pins and was tossed.

Nice to see the Pentium 4, though far from the best CPU, still in use even with those of us who have moved on so much faster. I was beginning to think I was one of the only ones using one.

Welcome to the forum - and the thread/club!

We're still a few that have good memories and like to revive a CPU that is still pretty much usable everyday. Besides, it proves a great challenge to get the best out of it and try newer games on these systems.

Btw, you've got two nice systems, both new and legacy! Have you got any benchmarks from the Northwood and the 6800GS ?
Edited by tpi2007 - 3/26/11 at 1:57pm
 
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post #275 of 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
Btw, you've got two nice systems, both new and legacy! Have you got any benchmarks from the Northwood and the 6800GS ?
Not offhand, no. The motherboard in that system (ASRock P4i65G) can overclock, but only on the most basic level, so it's essentially all stock. I don't think it even has CPU voltage control, just FSB control, so even a 200MHz overclock isn't stable and will BSOD it. Temperatures are "okay" on a Thermaltake TR2 M12.

The Crysis demo is all but unplayable at even the lowest of settings (playable, but slow above like 800x600), and I'm blaming the GPU since I saw someone else with a much better video card on a similar CPU getting Medium/High out of it.

Even Tiberium Wars, not a visual heavy game (which my old GeForce 8800GT handled at maximum at 2048x1536 no problem) has issues at Medium/High at 1024x768. The once might GeForce 6800 series is actually more the bottleneck than the Pentium 4, go figure. Actually, it might be the CPU in Tiberium Wars as it bogs down later in the game with many units going about.

Unreal Tournament III (and I'd wager most Unreal Engine 3 games) need lower settings and are a bit choppy, so those modern light games are out on it.

So clearly it's over the hill for newer stuff, but I suppose that's a given.

That being said, Doom 3, Far Cry, Battle for Middle-earth II, Portal, The Sims 2, and many of yesterday's top title games play just flawlessly on it.

With the video card, the extra four disabled Pixel Shaders are bad so I can't enable them with visual abnormalities. They almost work, but some levels in Halo had really bad snow, and Tiberium Wars did to a lesser effect as well. I think the extra single Vertex Shader was good but it probably wouldn't make a huge difference by itself.

I'd like to throw a Gallatin and GeForce 7xx0 or better of some sort in, but I'm prioritizing towards saving up to move the core of my primary PC (motherboard, CPU, and RAM) eventually first.
post #276 of 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Garnet View Post
Not offhand, no. The motherboard in that system (ASRock P4i65G) can overclock, but only on the most basic level, so it's essentially all stock. I don't think it even has CPU voltage control, just FSB control, so even a 200MHz overclock isn't stable and will BSOD it. Temperatures are "okay" on a Thermaltake TR2 M12.

The Crysis demo is all but unplayable at even the lowest of settings (playable, but slow above like 800x600), and I'm blaming the GPU since I saw someone else with a much better video card on a similar CPU getting Medium/High out of it.

Even Tiberium Wars, not a visual heavy game (which my old GeForce 8800GT handled at maximum at 2048x1536 no problem) has issues at Medium/High at 1024x768. The once might GeForce 6800 series is actually more the bottleneck than the Pentium 4, go figure. Actually, it might be the CPU in Tiberium Wars as it bogs down later in the game with many units going about.

Unreal Tournament III (and I'd wager most Unreal Engine 3 games) need lower settings and are a bit choppy, so those modern light games are out on it.

So clearly it's over the hill for newer stuff, but I suppose that's a given.

That being said, Doom 3, Far Cry, Battle for Middle-earth II, Portal, The Sims 2, and many of yesterday's top title games play just flawlessly on it.

With the video card, the extra four disabled Pixel Shaders are bad so I can't enable them with visual abnormalities. They almost work, but some levels in Halo had really bad snow, and Tiberium Wars did to a lesser effect as well. I think the extra single Vertex Shader was good but it probably wouldn't make a huge difference by itself.

I'd like to throw a Gallatin and GeForce 7xx0 or better of some sort in, but I'm prioritizing towards saving up to move the core of my primary PC (motherboard, CPU, and RAM) eventually first.

Since I've recently become an expert on Pentium 4's and AGP graphics cards hehehe, I can give you a few recommendations:

- The 6800GS you have has similar performance to the 7600GT, so no point in getting one of those from Nvidia's 7 series.

- Having said that, I managed playable Crysis at 1024x768 with a 7600GS at all low settings, so probably your CPU is bottlenecking a bit at that speed. I don't know if you tested it with the 2GB you have now. I used to have 1GB and it made Crysis unplayable even at the lowest settings. More memory helped a lot.

Ok, so from Nvidia you can try getting either a 7900GS and overclock it, or a 7950GT, which is rarer.

On ATI's side, you can try a X1950 Pro 256 or 512MB version, which is better than a 7900GS, or a Radeon HD2600XT, an HD3650 - but you should overclock it to get the same results as the 2600XT - unless it already comes pre-overclocked, the HD4650, or either one of the two cards I mentioned in the wish list post I wrote today, which are the best AGP cards you can get.


Oh, yes, the Gallatin, we are here trying to get one too.. but they are too expensive.. sellers are asking $200 for one of the 3.4 Ghz versions. The cheapest I found one was the 3.2Ghz, for $80 -90, I can't remember exactly.

We just bought 3.4Ghz Northwoods for now. They are being sold on ebay for affordable prices with free worldwide shipping included.

As to prioritizing, yes, that is a good idea, you could do with some updating -but only the CPU it seems to me, I did that last year and I'm good for now, so I'm reviving the Pentium 4 days
Edited by tpi2007 - 3/26/11 at 4:01pm
 
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post #277 of 761
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
The 6800GS you have has similar performance to the 7600GT, so no point in getting one of those from Nvidia's 7 series.
Almost, but not quite. The GeForce 7600GT bested the GeForce 6800GT quite a bit, and the AGP version of the GeForce 6800GS is the same exact chip as the GeForce 6800GT, only it's got 4 disabled pixel shaders (12 instead of 16) and one disabled vertex shader (5 instead of 6). The GeForce 7600GT also uses less power, produces less heat, and can usually overclock much better. The difference is more pronounced at lower resolutions too. Therefore, I figured a nice 7xx0 or similar would be a good fit for the CPU. I got this GeForce 6800GS AGP years ago for a bit under $100 (and that was when they were still formidable, the GeForce 8800 series wasn't even out yet to give you an idea of how somewhat modern it still was), so unless I see a good price on an AGP one I can't pass up, I won't bother until the main system is upgraded (which doesn't need it, I just want to).

In Crysis, I'm all but sure it's the GPU holding me back more than the CPU. Just dropping the resolution from 1024x768 to 800x600 (unacceptable!) sees a nice gain, so I'm sure it's the GPU.

All in all, the first level at least is "playable" at low, but the world has that "dull, not alive, odd lighting" look with low shaders, and medium shaders helps fix that but just kills it for performance. I tried some command variables to give it the real sky/sun, which help and barely take from performance, but the lighting of the world/objects still look way off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tpi2007 View Post
Oh, yes, the Gallatin, we are here trying to get one too.. but they are too expensive.. sellers are asking $200 for one of the 3.4 Ghz versions. The cheapest I found one was the 3.2Ghz, for $80 -90, I can't remember exactly.
Yikes! It's still that expensive!? Getting a standard 3.4GHz Northwood wouldn't be worth it from where it's sitting now, so it'd be Gallatin or bust, but at that price, forget it.

I remember when the 1.4GHz Tualatin Pentium IIIs were the same story, but then they came down in price, way down, to next to nothing (upon which I snagged one all these years later). I was hoping/thinking the same was true of the Gallatin. Funny, the Pentium 4 CPUs that were supposedly so bad back then still apparently has as much demand/use this many years later.
post #278 of 761
Bad news, my recently acquired Radeon X1950Pro is not working properly... must have been from so many hours of playing Crysis..

I never knew the actual temperature of the card, since it does not have temperature sensors.. but I did have the fan on the Zalman cooler spinning at max rpm, so I doubt it could be from that...

I tried booting with my 20 inch monitor and the motherboard would just beep some times, but I don't know what the beep code stands for.

Then I tried the monitor I've had hooked up to it, a 15 inch LG LCD monitor from 2001. It booted and got into Windows but sson after the mouse cursor went into a black square and it no longer responded to mouse clicks. I pressed the On/Off button on the case for Windows to shut down and the Windows desktop turned into a shade of green. Had to press the button to shut it down as it was not responding.

Booted a second time, this time it lasted a while longer.. well, a few seconds more and the mouse actually responded, but then came the black square in place of the mouse pointer and after a few more seconds the screen just lost the signal...

how likely is it that it could be that the thermal paste on the heatsinnk dried out ? I'm not holding out hope, but my guess is the card is dying... it even came with those little blue Zalman heatsinks on the memory, so it's not likely the memory.. or it could be...

Man, this is the second time in a few months I striek bad luck with Radeon cards. Back in November I got a faulty brand new HD6850. A few years ago I had a Radeon X700 fail after six months. In fact, I replaced the X700 with the 7600GS I still have today and that I replaced with this X1950Pro... well, if I can't fix the card with new thermal paste, I guess the 7600GS is going back in for the moment.
 
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post #279 of 761
Ouch. My GeForce 6800GS AGP went up to ~76C-ish at most, so it should be fine, but I uninstalled Crysis for now and won't be playing it on it anyway. I'm more surprised at the fact that it didn't have a thermal sensor.
post #280 of 761
I just broke out an old HP Pavilion a265c with a P4 HT Northwood 2.8GHz that's been collecting dust in my closet. Don't really know what I should do with it, any suggestions?


Got a BFG 7300GT 512MB AGP in there as well.
    
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