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Any sign of the 560 bios to try on a 460 yet?? - Page 31  

post #301 of 331
That doesn't look too bad. In theory, they cut a trace on the PCB, not on the chip die itself. Therefore with some solder and elbow grease, you can put it back together (assuming you can get off the IHS safely first).
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post #302 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Laser cutting is nothing new or special but companies do not talk about because consumers don't understand or care.
i see this, but i am talking about laser cutting the die itself, that is not the die itself. maybe i was not specific enough. and i do assume that no one here knows, because the gpu is intellectual property of NVIDIA. i see the pic of the die as well. do you or anyone else here know exactly what that is and what each part does? its like trying to decipher hieroglyphics. yes, it is a gpu die. but what do you know about it other than what is speculated? if there was so much info widely available about these things and exactly how they do what they do, then there would be no threads like this asking questions, because people would already know. and i would assume that there would be more than two companies that make gpus. you know that is a gpu die because nvidia says so. if they didnt, would you know that is the gf100?
Edited by ~kRon1k~ - 1/28/11 at 9:02pm
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post #303 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~kRon1k~ View Post
i see this, but i am talking about laser cutting the die itself, that is not the die itself. maybe i was not specific enough. and i do assume that no one here knows, because the gpu is intellectual property of NVIDIA. i see the pic of the die as well. do you or anyone else here know exactly what that is and what each part does? its like trying to decipher hieroglyphics. yes, it is a gpu die. but what do you know about it other than what is speculated? if there was so much info widely available about these things and exactly how they do what they do, then there would be no threads like this asking questions, because people would already know. and i would assume that there would be more than two companies that make gpus. you know that is a gpu die because nvidia says so. if they didnt, would you know that is the gf100?

No, but I guess you don't have an engineering background? You can do analysis.

From the GF100 die, I know right away that there 16 blocks that are repeated. I also know it is not a standard CPU by the layout of the die... the individual blocks are not close enough to dedicated controllers and I/O units.

If you look at enough die shots, you can begin to grasp chip design. i.e. Large areas of repeating blocks usually are cache... especially if all large repeated objects touch them. The repeated objects are then probably the cores since you want them next to cache.



Let's play a game... Look at the following 2 die shots.
Now, look at the Nehalem die. Can you identify the core blocks and cache blocks? Can you identify the memory controller block (knowing that all cores need direct connections to it)?
Now, look at the POWER6 die. How many cores does it have? Where are the cores and cache blocks?

POWER7:


Sandy Bridge:





Here is a POWER6 die:



Nehalem:

Edited by DuckieHo - 1/28/11 at 9:07pm
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post #304 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
No, but I guess you don't have an engineering background?
actually no i dont.
though i did graduate from the school of hard knocks, newark, nj.
i cant find anything about laser cutting a gpu die anywhere.
people are saying that nvidia laser cuts the die of the gpu to disable certain features, and i cannot find this to be true. there is no info available to support that statement other than people speculating. so i dont understand pioneerislouds reason for laughing.


fun game. yes i see the blocks, cores, cache, etc.
do you understand how they do what they do? im not saying i do. its just funny to read other people saying they do.
Edited by ~kRon1k~ - 1/28/11 at 9:10pm
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post #305 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv
I think what happened was that nV felt they had to respond to the 5830 and the 460 wasn't ready yet, nor was the 030 chip version of the 465 (the laser cut one), so they asked select partners to turn 470's into 465's via bios flash and sell 'em.

I don't think the partners really even binned which one's they converted, and that 470's and unlocking 465's are the same, w/no statistically-significant difference in any regard across the total population of both cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
Most partner sold 465's and why didn't NVIDIA just lower price then?

Also, do you have enough of sample to make the claim on population of the cards?
Whenever I preface a statement with 'I think', it means 'this is my guess'

With regards to the first question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but if you mean why didn't they lower price on the 470, to compete w/the 5830, I would guess it was simply a business decision at the time. They had the 460 in dev to compete w/it, but it wasn't ready, and they didn't want to compromise the position of the 470 in the marketplace at that time.

With regards to the second question, the answer is 'no'. However, I'm likewise fairly confident that nobody else has done the necessary sampling to prove me wrong. Like I say, this is 'what I think'. It's entirely based on anecdotal observation, along w/a bit of intuition on my part.

You said you used to work for evga, so if you have any insights to add from actual personal knowledge, I'm all for hearing about them. Like I said, this is just 'what I think'
    
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post #306 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~kRon1k~ View Post
actually no i dont.
though i did graduate from the school of hard knocks, newark, nj.
i cant find anything about laser cutting a gpu die anywhere.
people are saying that nvidia laser cuts the die of the gpu to disable certain features, and i cannot find this to be true. there is no info available to support that statement other than people speculating. so i dont understand pioneerislouds reason for laughing.


fun game. yes i see the blocks, cores, cache, etc.
do you understand how they do what they do? im not saying i do. its just funny to read other people saying they do.
I work in Newark.... street were horrible as they did a crappy job plowing... Took me 30 mins to get out town due to the Devils game tonight.

While you may not find information on laser cutting... we know that certain features are not possible on certain GPUs. We also know that software changes will not restore these features. That being said, a non-software (so hardware) modification had to have been made.

Yes, I have a general understanding of how transistors, cache, and memory design works as I have a degree in Computer Engineering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
Whenever I preface a statement with 'I think', it means 'this is my guess'

With regards to the first question, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but if you mean why didn't they lower price on the 470, to compete w/the 5830, I would guess it was simply a business decision at the time. They had the 460 in dev to compete w/it, but it wasn't ready, and they didn't want to compromise the position of the 470 in the marketplace at that time.
If that was true... then why are GTX465 still available? Why did only some use the reference GTX470 design and others didn't?
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post #307 of 331
I used to work in Newark, ugh.. Not saying JC is any better, but gotta love working in Brooklyn..

But yeh, back to the topic..
I have no idea how to read those pics DuckieHo, but hopefully I will in a few years when I start working on my CE degree.
post #308 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuckieHo View Post
If that was true... then why are GTX465 still available? Why did only some use the reference GTX470 design and others didn't?
Are you actually interested in my theories for reals? Or do you already know the answer to mysteries of the 465 and find it amusing to watch me speculate incorrectly

Is your take that the only reason that the 465 exists is as a way to unload sub-standard 470 cores, and thus that each and every card that is (or was, pre-flash) a 465 has been individually binned and is known to be crappier than all 'real' 470's?

Because personally I don't think that's the case, but if you know it is, then by all means, share your wisdom And I'd be happy if you also clue me in on what it is about 'locked' 465's that is consistently crappier vs 'real' 470's? Do they all have higher stock VIDs? Do all unlocked 465's not OC as high as all 470's? Do they always require more volts to hit the same clocks?

Actually, those were rhetorical questions, because I know that none of those statements is true. So ... what is your theory (or knowledge, as the case may be) about the what the binning process looked at, exactly, in order to weed out the crappy 470 cores that they turned into 465's?
    
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post #309 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
Are you actually interested in my theories for reals? Or do you already know the answer to mysteries of the 465 and find it amusing to watch me speculate incorrectly

Is your take that the only reason that the 465 exists is as a way to unload sub-standard 470 cores, and thus that each and every card that is (or was, pre-flash) a 465 has been individually binned and is known to be crappier than all 'real' 470's?

Because personally I don't think that's the case, but if you know it is, then by all means, share your wisdom And I'd be happy if you also clue me in on what it is about 'locked' 465's that is consistently crappier vs 'real' 470's? Do they all have higher stock VIDs? Do all unlocked 465's not OC as high as all 470's? Do they always require more volts to hit the same clocks? - My guess is its just like the X3's I'm sure most of them are failed, but to keep up a steady supply they probably just lock some X4's.

Actually, those were rhetorical questions, because I know that none of those statements is true. So ... what is your theory (or knowledge, as the case may be) about the what the binning process looked at, exactly, in order to weed out the crappy 470 cores that they turned into 465's?
I know in my experience with my unlocked 465's they needed a higher voltage than stock to run at normal speeds, and don't overclock greatly. I think they are probably failed 470's (or failed memory modules as the memory won't o/c for anything!), but I've heard of people with decent overclocks on unlocked ones as well
Edited by appleg33k85 - 1/29/11 at 8:57am
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post #310 of 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by brettjv View Post
Are you actually interested in my theories for reals? Or do you already know the answer to mysteries of the 465 and find it amusing to watch me speculate incorrectly

Is your take that the only reason that the 465 exists is as a way to unload sub-standard 470 cores, and thus that each and every card that is (or was, pre-flash) a 465 has been individually binned and is known to be crappier than all 'real' 470's?

Because personally I don't think that's the case, but if you know it is, then by all means, share your wisdom And I'd be happy if you also clue me in on what it is about 'locked' 465's that is consistently crappier vs 'real' 470's? Do they all have higher stock VIDs? Do all unlocked 465's not OC as high as all 470's? Do they always require more volts to hit the same clocks?

Actually, those were rhetorical questions, because I know that none of those statements is true. So ... what is your theory (or knowledge, as the case may be) about the what the binning process looked at, exactly, in order to weed out the crappy 470 cores that they turned into 465's?
I am speculating as well. I am playing Devil's Advocate and pointing out weaknesses in the hypothesis.


To further add, Asus provided an unlock tool as well. Why would they do that?

Also, if the GTX465 was forced by NVIDIA... then why did partners choose to have so many? If I was forced to sell perfectly good cards that are disabled and at lower prices, I would ship out as few of these as possible.
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