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post #21 of 43
The rant regarding viruses and OS popularity? Plenty of homebrew rootkits floating around on *nix since day one. While popularity may be a factor, the crux of the issue is the OS itself. Simply examine Windows hotfix details and you cannot help but come to the conclusion that the OS itself is disjointed with questionable QA and release practices.
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post #22 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamlau View Post
The rant regarding viruses and OS popularity? Plenty of homebrew rootkits floating around on *nix since day one. While popularity may be a factor, the crux of the issue is the OS itself. Simply examine Windows hotfix details and you cannot help but come to the conclusion that the OS itself is disjointed with questionable QA and release practices.
So how is it that Mac never had viruses before? and now all of a sudden their coding skills went down the drain?

Im sure if you got a group of world class hackers, they could find plenty of similar security issues with linux.

the point is, people who write virus' want to target people that are ignorant, and to large groups, that includes windows.
They know the linux users know what they are doing, so there isn't really a point in targeting that small group.
post #23 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
i'm surprised this thread hasn't brought out every troll and fanboi OCN has.

what exactly sucks about it? i know why i don't like it, be curious to know why you don't
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and allot of people like myself, have learned to walk away from a flame war before it starts.

I mean, who really starts a thread like that with no intention of a flame war?
post #24 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrasherht View Post
So how is it that Mac never had viruses before? and now all of a sudden their coding skills went down the drain?

Im sure if you got a group of world class hackers, they could find plenty of similar security issues with linux.

the point is, people who write virus' want to target people that are ignorant, and to large groups, that includes windows.
They know the linux users know what they are doing, so there isn't really a point in targeting that small group.
i know of at least 80 pre-mac osx virus's.

it isn't that it doesn't get virus or can't virus's, but the ravenous windows fanboi's make a big deal out of it when it gets one, some how justifying that mac OSX sucks cause it got 1 lousy virus in the last 10 years that did a bit of damage to less than .5% of its user base.
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post #25 of 43
Greetz
Flame Warz? Woot! I'll get the marshmallows!
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post #26 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrasherht View Post
You know why windows has virus' and security fixes all the time? Becuase it is the most popular OS, if linux became the most popular OS out there, it would start having virus issues to.
Kinda like mac, up until a few years ago they weren't nearly as popular as they are now, they have virus problems now. Not a ton, but some problems.
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
i've heard a lot of people say this, but i've seen ton of evidence against it, its usually used to suggest that Linux/bsd/unix and its variants, are just as weak and feable as windows is when it comes to security, without producing any hard evidence, cause the only real way to prove this wrong, is to make linux have 70% of the market share, and see how things play out, so it is just an escape goat statement, that people who don't understand how *nix based security works vs that of windows based security.

i could set here all day and bore you with the details of why this statement is 95% false, but i wont, but i will encourage you to find out for yourself why it isn't true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamlau View Post
The rant regarding viruses and OS popularity? Plenty of homebrew rootkits floating around on *nix since day one. While popularity may be a factor, the crux of the issue is the OS itself. Simply examine Windows hotfix details and you cannot help but come to the conclusion that the OS itself is disjointed with questionable QA and release practices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrasherht View Post
So how is it that Mac never had viruses before? and now all of a sudden their coding skills went down the drain?

Im sure if you got a group of world class hackers, they could find plenty of similar security issues with linux.

the point is, people who write virus' want to target people that are ignorant, and to large groups, that includes windows.
They know the linux users know what they are doing, so there isn't really a point in targeting that small group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
i know of at least 80 pre-mac osx virus's.

it isn't that it doesn't get virus or can't virus's, but the ravenous windows fanboi's make a big deal out of it when it gets one, some how justifying that mac OSX sucks cause it got 1 lousy virus in the last 10 years that did a bit of damage to less than .5% of its user base.
What I haven't seen in this entire "discussion" about OSX is the possibility of the mach_kernel being 100% open source now. You can mess with the internals, view the security implementations, design your own rootkit to the kernel's specifications.

If you don't believe me, go get the AMD kernel NOT released by Apple. Once you have that, and trust me it exists, go find it's source. Then you'll realize the answer is ALL THERE.

Oh wait, did I just put a huge hole in your theory? Yes.

Take the server market, windows does own a little over half. The rest is owned by either unix/linux/other. Unix/Linux own about 40%, so you would say put together they are a major player in this field. Now it is known throughout the FXP scene that if you want to hack a server your best bet is Windows. Why? Because most of the windows exploits can be done cross platform. This is important because the Unix/Linux exploits mainly require you to use a Linux/Unix box to do. Now if you know anything about security, anything at all, you can easily point out the problem here.

That goes against your "popularity", it's simply easier to hack Windows than it is Linux/Unix.

Now for the desktop environment...

ActiveX:
http://sip.cs.princeton.edu/java-vs-activex.html
I know that's a little old, but ActiveX still does about the same things and causes a LOT of problems with malware/spyware. Not to mention we have known people can fake signatures, making them appear as if it's from a respected site (fooling you).
http://www.adoko.com/activex.html
A little newer, giving you some insight on spyware.
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Mi...itical-368386/
A new article, showing that ActiveX STILL has security holes.

That's just to show that we've KNOWN ActiveX to have security issues, we've known for a long time.

What else is there? Hmmmmm?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/10...dows_vs_linux/

I'm going to end on that cause it's a good article and very long. I've also got a paper to write.
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post #27 of 43
Way off, thrasherht . But I am not going to get into it, suffice to say that world class hackers have always been going at *nix since the very beginning. Mind you that I am also clasically trained in both Windows (as a graduate of the Mt Sierra College MCSE program [yes, I was a former MCSE]) and UNIX at the university (UCLA) level, so I figure to have some footing as to the strengths and weaknesses of both. Unless you have experience with different operating systems (I also have a 2009 iMac and a 2010 Macbook Pro), subjective/objective comparisons cannot be made with sincerity.
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post #28 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamlau View Post
Way off, thrasherht . But I am not going to get into it, suffice to say that world class hackers have always been going at *nix since the very beginning. Mind you that I am also clasically trained in both Windows (as a graduate of the Mt Sierra College MCSE program [yes, I was a former MCSE]) and UNIX at the university (UCLA) level, so I figure to have some footing as to the strengths and weaknesses of both. Unless you have experience with different operating systems (I also have a 2009 iMac and a 2010 Macbook Pro), subjective/objective comparisons cannot be made with sincerity.
I am glad you are confident in your OS's security. But what I said is completely on track. Virus' are targeted at windows and Mac now. If they targeted linux, you would start to see more updates and hot fixes that would fix security holes.


You can only find a problem with something if you are pushing that problem area. Kinda like a boat, you can say it is sea worthy all you want, but until you actually put it on the sea, you won't truely know.

wasn't the titanic suppose to be like unsinkable? That is my point.
post #29 of 43
No. World class, independant and goverment-funded white and black hat hackers have ALWAYS been going at *nix, and not just from a security standpoint. As it relates to security, decades of attempted/successful/unsuccessful penetrations and attempts have led to the rise of *nix as a (relatively) secure OS solution out of the box. But again, I understand where you are coming from and it is all good. I simply disagree based on evidence both circumstantial and fact-based.
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post #30 of 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrasherht View Post
I am glad you are confident in your OS's security. But what I said is completely on track. Virus' are targeted at windows and Mac now. If they targeted linux, you would start to see more updates and hot fixes that would fix security holes.


You can only find a problem with something if you are pushing that problem area. Kinda like a boat, you can say it is sea worthy all you want, but until you actually put it on the sea, you won't truely know.

wasn't the titanic suppose to be like unsinkable? That is my point.
Have you ever ventured into the idea that most malicious code for windows is considered User Error? I hate to throw a wrench in your philosophy but you apparently didn't read any of my post. Yeah the user error wasn't part of it, but I'm going to throw that at ya now too.

If you can prove me wrong I'd love to hear that, but as of everything I know about security that probably won't happen. Most malicious code uses human error to gain it's root privileges and then control the system. There are few viruses that are written that can demolish systems without user intervention.

[edit]

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamlau View Post
No. World class, independant and goverment-funded white and black hat hackers have ALWAYS been going at *nix, and not just from a security standpoint. As it relates to security, decades of attempted/successful/unsuccessful penetrations and attempts have led to the rise of *nix as a (relatively) secure OS solution out of the box. But again, I understand where you are coming from and its all good. I simply disagree based on evidence both circumstantial and fact-based.
That's a standpoint I don't usually include, as the only real life application I see that for is server security. (it's pointless to hack a persons box unless it's personal, generally pointless anyways). But yeah, the article I linked to talks about how *Nix dominates the server world, and while it doesn't quite dominate, it's got over 40%. That 40% has big players though, including various governments that use *Nix for servers.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/3/11 at 1:40pm
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