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Lapped AMD Phenom II 965 + lapped stock heatsink. Good bye thermal paste! - Page 6

post #51 of 62
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Either way the point is, and so far I am proving it very well, that thermal paste is an option, not a requirement, at least when it comes to lapped CPUs and heatsinks.
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post #52 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikelKassner View Post
Either way the point is, and so far I am proving it very well, that thermal paste is an option, not a requirement, at least when it comes to lapped CPUs and heatsinks.
Except that you could probably get the same, if not marginally better temps, by not lapping and just using TIM initially. Particularly once you account for first time cockups while lapping that do more harm than good. And then there's that pesky tidbit about voiding your chip's warranty...
Edited by sch010 - 2/11/11 at 10:23pm
    
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post #53 of 62
I feel like a lot of derping is going on here because people have been instructed to always use tim. The surface of HS contact will always have better thermal conductivity than a thermal paste will. Its like comparing jello to water for drink-ability. If he somehow managed to get a perfect lap hes better off not gunking it up. With all that said I don't think perfect is easy to come by and would recommended a very liquid like tim, so when its applied it spreads over the whole cpu with a very think coat. Use only a little.
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post #54 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikelKassner View Post
Well I just got my motherboard back from MSI repair, ends up they refused to repair it because one of the PCI-E card locks was broke (that's not even part of the MB, ***?), but anyways. While my motherboard was gone for a couple weeks I decided to venture into lapping, and well... I got so distracted between lapping and other stuff that had to be done that I forgot to order IC Diamond thermal paste. So just this morning my motherboard came in and I realized I forgot to buy any thermal paste and did some Googling seeing if anyone ever used a lapped CPU and heatsink without any thermal paste, after finding a video of someone that had I reluctantly put it all together and started it up immedietly going to the BIOS to check temps, in the BIOS the CPU was idling at 34C, idling in Windows 7 it's at 42C, and under stress testing it maxes at 63C.
Stress temps I'm not too happy with but now my idle temps are 10+C cooler, am going to redo lapping the heatsink since I sorta messed up then work on the heatsink clamp since it's putting little pressure onto the CPU and update the temps.
Very interesting i had thought about running a lapped cpu and sink with out thermal paste before. of course seeing baggillion pages on this post i'm sure it's full of trolling. the fact is you maxed at 63C, would I keep that way naaahhh, but it is cool bit of info to know.
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post #55 of 62
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdoublejj View Post
Very interesting i had thought about running a lapped cpu and sink with out thermal paste before. of course seeing baggillion pages on this post i'm sure it's full of trolling. the fact is you maxed at 63C, would I keep that way naaahhh, but it is cool bit of info to know.
Yeah their has been a good bit of it, some people can't get it through their head that their are ways to get around using TIM, my results would of been much better if I didn't have apparently the worst stock Phenom II cooler ever made, seems idle temps on it are others load temps with or without TIM, but testing will be redone after I order a new cooler.
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post #56 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Radius Kid View Post
Eeyup....valleys full of air.
The big question is why would air be worse at transfering heat than metal filled paste?
Ultimately,every home computer is air cooled..unless you're using a geothermal loop.
Air is a notoriously horrid conductor of heat. That's why we have air and gas-paned windows. It's a GREAT insulator of heat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikelKassner View Post
Either way the point is, and so far I am proving it very well, that thermal paste is an option, not a requirement, at least when it comes to lapped CPUs and heatsinks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vap0r87 View Post
I feel like a lot of derping is going on here because people have been instructed to always use tim. The surface of HS contact will always have better thermal conductivity than a thermal paste will. Its like comparing jello to water for drink-ability. If he somehow managed to get a perfect lap hes better off not gunking it up. With all that said I don't think perfect is easy to come by and would recommended a very liquid like tim, so when its applied it spreads over the whole cpu with a very think coat. Use only a little.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikelKassner View Post
Yeah their has been a good bit of it, some people can't get it through their head that their are ways to get around using TIM, my results would of been much better if I didn't have apparently the worst stock Phenom II cooler ever made, seems idle temps on it are others load temps with or without TIM, but testing will be redone after I order a new cooler.
Allow to me to elaborate on my last post. I'm a mechanical engineer with a background in heat transfer.

No heatsink surface is smooth. No matter how mirror-like it appears, there are still countless crevices that are negatively affecting your heat transfer. These crevices, filled with air, act as insulators.

No heatsink surface is flat. I don't care if you used 1000000 grit sandpaper and the flattest surface in the world to lap against. Unless your 100% flat heatsink sits flush and even with a 100% flat CPU, some areas of the CPU will NOT be touching the heatsink. What does this mean? That gap is filled with air, the same dreaded insulator just mentioned.

TIM (a great heat conductor) fills the microcrevices producing a surface that can now transfer heat through its entire surface. TIM also fills in the gaps produced by two surfaces not identically flat or two surfaces not evenly mounted (did you screw your heatsink to the backplate with exactly the same torque on all four screws?).

Can you get by without using TIM? In some cases probably. Consequently, your heatsink is now noticeably less efficient, and without improved fans, may cause your CPU to overheat. Lapped your heatsink? Use less TIM. Don't use none.

Lets consider some pros and cons of NOT using TIM

Pros:
  • Save $0.10 (0.005% of your computer build cost)

Cons:
  • Major risk of CPU overheat and/or $100+ loss
  • Voided warranty
  • Need bigger heatsink
  • Need faster fans
  • Use more electricity to power faster fans
  • Deal with louder computer due to faster fans

As I said before, this should be a no-brainer to use TIM. It's one thing to question how necessary a particular mass-marketed component truly is (who really needs a $90 1900g copper heatsink for a 90W CPU), but it's another to argue against a proven product to save you $0.10. For a community of people trying to achieve the fastest and most reliable overclocks (and spend serious $ to do so), it makes absolutely no sense to bypass such a cheap, easy to use, and critical component of your cooling system.
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post #57 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyxyll View Post
Air is a notoriously horrid conductor of heat. That's why we have air and gas-paned windows. It's a GREAT insulator of heat.





Allow to me to elaborate on my last post. I'm a mechanical engineer with a background in heat transfer.

No heatsink surface is smooth. No matter how mirror-like it appears, there are still countless crevices that are negatively affecting your heat transfer. These crevices, filled with air, act as insulators.

No heatsink surface is flat. I don't care if you used 1000000 grit sandpaper and the flattest surface in the world to lap against. Unless your 100% flat heatsink sits flush and even with a 100% flat CPU, some areas of the CPU will NOT be touching the heatsink. What does this mean? That gap is filled with air, the same dreaded insulator just mentioned.

TIM (a great heat conductor) fills the microcrevices producing a surface that can now transfer heat through its entire surface. TIM also fills in the gaps produced by two surfaces not identically flat or two surfaces not evenly mounted (did you screw your heatsink to the backplate with exactly the same torque on all four screws?).

Can you get by without using TIM? In some cases probably. Consequently, your heatsink is now noticeably less efficient, and without improved fans, may cause your CPU to overheat. Lapped your heatsink? Use less TIM. Don't use none.

Lets consider some pros and cons of NOT using TIM

Pros:
  • Save $0.10 (0.005% of your computer build cost)

Cons:
  • Major risk of CPU overheat and/or $100+ loss
  • Voided warranty
  • Need bigger heatsink
  • Need faster fans
  • Use more electricity to power faster fans
  • Deal with louder computer due to faster fans

As I said before, this should be a no-brainer to use TIM. It's one thing to question how necessary a particular mass-marketed component truly is (who really needs a $90 1900g copper heatsink for a 90W CPU), but it's another to argue against a proven product to save you $0.10. For a community of people trying to achieve the fastest and most reliable overclocks (and spend serious $ to do so), it makes absolutely no sense to bypass such a cheap, easy to use, and critical component of your cooling system.

Awe c'mon now.
I knew that.
I wanted someone other than a "ringer" to figure this out.
Jeeze,you hurt my feelings.
IIRC,it has to do with boundary layers and the lack of energy transfer due to the states of the mediums and their relative densities that are doing the transfering,or something along those lines.
In other words,how much energy gets passed along in medium transfer [conductance] and how much gets held up or reflected back due to the saturation of the next step in the chain of transferance to the ultimate cooling medium [air].
I *hope* I said that right.
post #58 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacksknight View Post
Umm no.. ALWAYS USE THERMAL PASTE!
This
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikelKassner View Post
Closed minded much? Lol thermal paste isn't a necessity when done properly.
It is a necessity, i mean look at your load temps, not good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMD2600 View Post
The correct way to do this is using TIM. It doesn't matter if both your cpu and heat sink are both lapped. Without TIM there is nothing to transfer heat from CPU to the HS. It doesn't just fill in the cracks it acts as a medium to transfer heat.
This
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Radius Kid View Post
Eeyup....valleys full of air.
The big question is why would air be worse at transfering heat than metal filled paste?
Ultimately,every home computer is air cooled..unless you're using a geothermal loop.
lolwut? You deserve Negative Rep for that.
post #59 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Radius Kid View Post
Awe c'mon now.
I knew that.
I wanted someone other than a "ringer" to figure this out.
Jeeze,you hurt my feelings.
IIRC,it has to do with boundary layers and the lack of energy transfer due to the states of the mediums and their relative densities that are doing the transfering,or something along those lines.
In other words,how much energy gets passed along in medium transfer [conductance] and how much gets held up or reflected back due to the saturation of the next step in the chain of transferance to the ultimate cooling medium [air].
I *hope* I said that right.
lol, somehow I thought "thank god this guy knows what I'm talking about" but failed to recognize the sarcasm in the air vs metal-filled paste debacle.
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post #60 of 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xyxyll View Post
Lol, somehow I thought "thank god this guy knows what I'm talking about" but failed to recognize the sarcasm in the air vs metal-filled paste debacle.

Just messing with you.
Nice to see someone understands the physics behind it all.
I remember high school physics class and doing energy transferance testing with different "strength" slinkies in the hallway.
How much got reflected back,what was the phase of the returning wave,amplitude,etc.
Neat stuff.
That's why I can't understand some people's fascination with a million cooling fans per case.
All that turbulent air in there makes no sense to me.
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