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[GI]Game Informer March Cover Revealed: Battlefield 3 - Page 6

post #51 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
The number of players isn't necessarily limited by framerate or the power of the PC/console/server, but also by bandwidth. Not only do you not want all of your servers to require expensive high-bandwidth internet connections (especially if you want players to be able to run their own dedicated servers), but you also need to have a setup that doesn't require large amounts of bandwidth for each player connecting to the server.

I'll try to explain this in less than a full page wall of text.

Lets imagine a 16-player map. You stand in the middle of the map while 15 others are watching, and now you jump. You have to send a packet for your jump to the host (which may or may not be dedicated). Then the host has to send a packet for you jumping to 15 other players.

A packet for just saying you're jumping may be very small, but it's also likely to include your current position, and orientation, and possibly some other minor things. Lets just say the packet is 1 kilobit in size to the host, and 0.2 kilobits in size down to each of the 15 other clients. If you're the host, that's 1 kb download, 3 kb up.

Lets now say you jump once per second. Now bandwidth for the host is 1 kbps down, 3 kbps up. Not too bad yet, right?

Now all 15 players begin jumping up and down. That is now 16 kbps down, and 48 kbps up. Bear in mind, this is just for small amounts of information that would go along with jumping.

Now lets use the same situation as above, but increase the number of players to 32. Bandwidth is now 32 kbps down, and 198 kbps up (32 players each receiving 0.2 kpbs of data from the 31 other players jumping once per second).

So lets make the players more active. We'll say this is an FPS game, and they're running, jumping, switching weapons, firing weapons (includes firing rate, the insection points for each bullet), getting shot at (includes telling the server if you think you were hit), if you've crouched or gone prone, if you used a secondary weapon (grenade, smoke grenade), if you've used an attachment, if you've used a perk (which perk, which direction did you place it, which location did you choose for it). The list of crap you send a host goes on and on. I'd say on average amount of data you're sending a server is closer to 3-4 kbps. At this point it is worth mentioning that a host doesn't send ALL data it receives from a client to all of the other clients. For example those clients don't need to know all of the details about the perk they just used. However, the server does need to send clients other information that doesn't come from clients, like when a grenade exploded, who died. When a bullet hit someone, where did it hit them, did they die from it, etc.

You have to send each client all of the information they need to be able to realistically predict what other players are doing. So this means that each client is sent more information than they're sending to the host. But you don't have to send every client info in high intervals. For example a client can send a host a lot of information twice per second, but the host will only send other clients updates about that player once every second. Each client takes the info it gets about the other clients and tries to predict what will happen during that second.

Anyway, for our new scenario with players doing many things, we'll say that all players are uploading 4 kbps, and downloading 7 kbps, and that we have 32 players. This means that the server is downloading 128 kbps, and uploading 224 kbps.

Same scenario with 64 players. Downloading for players is now doubled to 14 kbps. Server is now downloading 256 kbps, uploading is 896 kpbs. By doubling the players, we've doubled the download requirements for each client, and quadrupled the upload requirement for the server. If we increase to 128 players, downloading for players is doubled again to 28 kbps, uploading for server is at 3.6 mbps. At the point of 128 players, though, I must admit that performance of the hardware is probably an issue as well as bandwidth, for both the server and the clients. I'll leave that discussion out of this wall of text, and can post about that later if anyone is really interested.
we arent. Though your packet sizes are quite inflated.

64 players is handled pretty easily on computers. hell i have been on 128 player killing floor servers, and it was all pretty fluid. Not to mention we already know that 64 is doable, as we have been playing 64 players for years, and we have another 64 player game on the horizon, which is red orchestra, which has just as much information that needs to be relayed as this game would.
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post #52 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by P3anutg View Post
Well DICE promised they are not going to be holding back for the PC version, so yeah I hope it's also 64 players. Im probably going to have to upgrade my video card.
Anything less and I may not even buy the game (on launch anyway).
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post #53 of 80
as a BF2 Vet here all i ask is 1 simple improvment over BFBC2 LET ME AS A SNIPER GO F***ing PRONE!!!!

that is all
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post #54 of 80
Actually, I think it's the lower count games that are better, too much chaos & blatant hacking going on in huge multiplayer games, furthermore, when a hacker is cheating in a small game it's rather obvious..

Hacker has 40 kills, the rest of the players have < 15 kills, obviously cheating, always headshots or kills in 0.2 seconds, and it's just SICKENING!

I don't care if they release battlefield 40, if they don't put an end to the blatant cheating/hacking going on, online, then I won't buy another copy ever!

===============================

Bad Company 2 left a very bad taste in my mouth, crummy VFXs (explosions with grenades cause hard pauses), too much blood splattering, horrible visibility in many scenes, too many movie mode/cut-scenes (I like to play game not watch it, how about you?), and online is just bad, plain bad.

Not to mention that BFBC2 was designed for consoles, it even feels like the watered it down so console players could "survive"...
Edited by _GTech - 2/3/11 at 9:37pm
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post #55 of 80
is there single player in bf3 can u give me a link?
    
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post #56 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadarocker View Post
Ah crap, ruined already, if they actually pull this off BF2 style now I'll be surprised.
any FPS game going to be on the market, especially multiplayer, should be setting their sights on beating out CoD. Otherwise, they're aiming way too low and would bomb because there is no denying CoD is the best selling FPS out there next to Halo. Saying that you wouldn't want to beat out either of those would be pretty sad, and I wouldn't want to buy your game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhati
we arent. Though your packet sizes are quite inflated.

64 players is handled pretty easily on computers. hell i have been on 128 player killing floor servers, and it was all pretty fluid. Not to mention we already know that 64 is doable, as we have been playing 64 players for years, and we have another 64 player game on the horizon, which is red orchestra, which has just as much information that needs to be relayed as this game would.
I actually have to agree with Vhati on this one.
Edited by OmegaNemesis28 - 2/3/11 at 9:45pm
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post #57 of 80
cant w8 for the bf3 to be released
 
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post #58 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhati View Post
we arent. Though your packet sizes are quite inflated.

64 players is handled pretty easily on computers. hell i have been on 128 player killing floor servers, and it was all pretty fluid. Not to mention we already know that 64 is doable, as we have been playing 64 players for years, and we have another 64 player game on the horizon, which is red orchestra, which has just as much information that needs to be relayed as this game would.
Depends on the game, for an FPS I guess the packets were a bit large. For an MMO with 64 players in a range and potentially enemy NPCs a lot more information can be required (but yes, we are talking about FPS games here). Also, when you say 128 players, do you mean 128 players all visible in range at once? And I assume you mean PC, it'd be a stretch for a console to handle that unless player avatar poly count and bone count (for animations) were both very low, and textures for them were small.

I work on MMOs, so I must admit my knowledge of networking architecture for an FPS is much more limited. For an FPS, it has the advantage of knowing that everyone in the map is in range at once, so it can simply send data about all players to all other players. By contrast in an MMO, you only want to receive data about things nearby, so simply calculating what is in range of every player can be somewhat expensive even for a server. So maybe I was overestimating bandwidth based on my experience with MMO networking.

I'm curious if games trying to fit a lot more players on a single server have less detail in some way? A server with twice as many players is going to have to send players twice as much info (using twice as much bandwidth) unless less detailed information is sent to each player. It is a sacrifice of some kind, the question is if that sacrifice will be noticeable to the player. Maybe the data is sent half as often, resulting in less accurate movement, or something along those lines. Maybe they have optimizations based on a map layout where the server knows it can exclude sending data from players far away to other players. Or maybe they send updates to players less often about players further away. I guess with a confined area like an FPS map, there are a lot of optimizations that can be done, as far as bandwidth goes at least.
Edited by lordikon - 2/3/11 at 10:09pm
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post #59 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordikon View Post
Depends on the game, for an FPS I guess the packets were a bit large. For an MMO with 64 players in a range and potentially enemy NPCs a lot more information can be required (but yes, we are talking about FPS games here). Also, when you say 128 players, do you mean 128 players all visible in range at once? And I assume you mean PC, it'd be a stretch for a console to handle that unless player avatar poly count and bone count (for animations) were both very low, and textures for them were small.
I'd bring up MAG but as I believe we've discussed specifically before - you don't see all 256 players at once. But that doesn't mean that your game isn't affected by all 256 players or you don't see a buttload at once.

I don't believe even in 64 player BF2 games you really see all 64 players at one point.
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post #60 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
I'd bring up MAG but as I believe we've discussed specifically before - you don't see all 256 players at once. But that doesn't mean that your game isn't affected by all 256 players or you don't see a buttload at once.

I don't believe even in 64 player BF2 games you really see all 64 players at one point.
Would it be possible to ever see all 64 players at once? Could they all crowd into the same area? It sounded like with MAG it simply wasn't possible, but in BF2 I would think it was.
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