Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › i7 hyper-threading
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

i7 hyper-threading

post #1 of 11
Thread Starter 
I'm having an argument with a guy on Youtube (I know what you're gonna say, but he seems like a guy who's actually willing to learn) and we're discussing how HT affects gaming.

This is the discussion so far (go to bottom for TL;DR):
Quote:
Originally Posted by him
and 920 can MAX any game. since no game uses 4 cores. most use 2 cores. even crysis uses 2 cores, metro2033 uses 2 cores, gta4 uses 2 cores, bc2 uses 2 cores
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
GTA uses 4 cores, BC2 uses 4 cores, Dirt 2 and F1 2010 use 4 cores. Don't know what you're on about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by him
no it does NOT. why, becuase i have task manager opened in a second screan. and i see how many threads and cores are being used. 4 threads, 2 cores at 40%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Umm, there's no way for a game to distinguish between virtual cores and real cores. It's using 4 threads as it's designed to. If you play the game on an i5, it'll still use 4 threads, but those threads will be on 4 separate cores.
Quote:
Originally Posted by him
you know what threads are right?
threads are not virtuel cores.. i could explain if you want to..
but its simple.
after the proces is finished on the core. normally it has to wait till next cycle. and waste the rest of that cycle.
but with hyperthreading. it will start a new proces right after it finished that one in that cycle..
its not virtuel cores. it just uses the recources better
Quote:
Originally Posted by me
I know what threads are, yes.
"For each processor core that is physically present, the operating system addresses two virtual processors" -Wikipedia
When you use hyper threading, you're basically creating a virtual core next to the physical core, giving the PC 2 logical cores to work with. Go to your BIOS and turn hyper-threading off. You'll still be using 4 threads but on 4 cores
Quote:
Originally Posted by him
thats one of those instances where wikipedia is not tellign the whole truth. wiki hyperthreading.
you still have 4 cores. the logical cores mean nothing.
TL;DR:
He's saying that using 2 cores and 4 threads on an i7 is not the same as using 4 physical cores on something like an i5 and that he's still only using 2 cores, meaning that a Core 2 Duo would be enough for any game.

Who's right and how does it really work?
Edited by B!0HaZard - 2/4/11 at 2:40am
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
post #2 of 11
Most games don't use more than 4 cores. BC2 does use 4.
Hi5
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 750 4.0ghz @ 1.36v Asus P7P55D 5850 @ 970/1200 G.SKILL 4Gb 1600-7-8-7 @ 1900-7-9-7-24-1T 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-V 40Gb + 1Tb Windows 7 x64 2x24" Samsung Syncmaster Cherry G80-3000LSCGB-2 (Mx- Blue) 
PowerCase
TX650W HAF-932 
  hide details  
Reply
Hi5
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 750 4.0ghz @ 1.36v Asus P7P55D 5850 @ 970/1200 G.SKILL 4Gb 1600-7-8-7 @ 1900-7-9-7-24-1T 
Hard DriveOSMonitorKeyboard
Intel X25-V 40Gb + 1Tb Windows 7 x64 2x24" Samsung Syncmaster Cherry G80-3000LSCGB-2 (Mx- Blue) 
PowerCase
TX650W HAF-932 
  hide details  
Reply
post #3 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevinchy View Post
Most games don't use more than 4 cores. BC2 does use 4.
Well, that wasn't the answer I was looking for, but thanks for confirming that. I already knew, but I guess it'll help convince this guy.
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by B!0HaZard View Post
Well, that wasn't the answer I was looking for, but thanks for confirming that. I already knew, but I guess it'll help convince this guy.
dont' bother

i don't even understand why your trying to correct some dude on youtube

just let it be and let him roll in his stupidity
post #5 of 11
GTA 4 quite happily hits up all 6 cores on my CPU. Granted not many games do that but his assertion that it only uses two or three threads is wrong.
The Oracle
(16 items)
 
Pythia
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790K Gigabyte GA-Z97X-GAMING 5 Gigabyte GeForce GTX 780Ti WindForce 3x OC Corsair Vengeance 2x8GB DDR3 1866MHz  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 256GB 850 Pro Samsung 256GB 840 Pro Westerb Digital Caviar Black 1TB XSPC Rasa ES240 + 2 GT AP-15s 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 8.1 Pro Samsung SyncMaster S27A850D 27" LCD Corsair K70 Corsair AX850 
Case
Corsair 650D 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
i3 4130 Gigabyte GA-B85M-HD3 Corsair 2x4gb DDR3 1600mhz Low Profile CL9 1.35v WD Blue 500GB (OS) 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
WD Green 4TB, 2TB Ubuntu x86_64 14.04.1 LTS ssh or vnc SuperFlower Golden Green HX 350W 
Case
Corsair 350D, GT AP-13 
  hide details  
Reply
The Oracle
(16 items)
 
Pythia
(14 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4790K Gigabyte GA-Z97X-GAMING 5 Gigabyte GeForce GTX 780Ti WindForce 3x OC Corsair Vengeance 2x8GB DDR3 1866MHz  
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 256GB 850 Pro Samsung 256GB 840 Pro Westerb Digital Caviar Black 1TB XSPC Rasa ES240 + 2 GT AP-15s 
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 8.1 Pro Samsung SyncMaster S27A850D 27" LCD Corsair K70 Corsair AX850 
Case
Corsair 650D 
CPUMotherboardRAMHard Drive
i3 4130 Gigabyte GA-B85M-HD3 Corsair 2x4gb DDR3 1600mhz Low Profile CL9 1.35v WD Blue 500GB (OS) 
Hard DriveOSMonitorPower
WD Green 4TB, 2TB Ubuntu x86_64 14.04.1 LTS ssh or vnc SuperFlower Golden Green HX 350W 
Case
Corsair 350D, GT AP-13 
  hide details  
Reply
post #6 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by infected rat View Post
GTA 4 quite happily hits up all 6 cores on my CPU. Granted not many games do that but his assertion that it only uses two or three threads is wrong.
Finally someone who actually answered my question! Or wait... No, you didn't! Man, so people don't know how this works?
Edited by B!0HaZard - 2/4/11 at 3:07am
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
post #7 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by B!0HaZard View Post
TL;DR:
He's saying that using 2 cores and 4 threads on an i7 is not the same as using 4 physical cores on something like an i5 and that he's still only using 2 cores, meaning that a Core 2 Duo would be enough for any game.

Who's right and how does it really work?

Hes right, 4 threads on 2 cores is slower than 4 physical cores.


You have two different things going on...

HT not going to help 99% of the games out there with an x4 cpu. HT on a 2 core chip will however perform better than no HT on a 2 core chip in games that use 3 or more cores.

Many games only use 2 cores, however those that use more benefit greatly from having them. A core 2 duo can be a massive bottleneck in modern games, however adding HT to a 2 core cpu isn't the answer either.


HT will also have a negative impact on code optimized for the amount of physical cores available. You can see this with IBT, HT will reduce GFlops.
Edited by BallaTheFeared - 2/4/11 at 3:30am
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i5 2500K P8P67 PRO NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT G-Skill A-Data G-Skill 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveOS
A-Data Crucial M4 64GB + 1TB F3 Spinpoint $155 LS/DL DVD RW $?? Windows 8 64-bit "Epic Registry" Edition 
MonitorPowerCase
ASUS 21.5 1920x1080 2ms $135 CORSAIR HX850 $120 Mother Earth $free 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i5 2500K P8P67 PRO NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT G-Skill A-Data G-Skill 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveOS
A-Data Crucial M4 64GB + 1TB F3 Spinpoint $155 LS/DL DVD RW $?? Windows 8 64-bit "Epic Registry" Edition 
MonitorPowerCase
ASUS 21.5 1920x1080 2ms $135 CORSAIR HX850 $120 Mother Earth $free 
  hide details  
Reply
post #8 of 11
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BallaTheFeared View Post
Hes right, 4 threads on 2 cores is slower than 4 physical cores.


You have two different things going on...

HT not going to help 99% of the games out there with an x4 cpu. HT on a 2 core chip will however perform better than no HT on a 2 core chip in games that use 3 or more cores.

Many games only use 2 cores, however those that use more benefit greatly from having them. A core 2 duo can be a massive bottleneck in modern games, however adding HT to a 2 core cpu isn't the answer either.


HT will also have a negative impact on code optimized for the amount of physical cores available. You can see this with IBT, HT will reduce GFlops.
No, I didn't mean that HT threads = physical cores, I meant that he said that 4 threads on 2 cores used by a game means that it only supports 2 cores, so on an i5, it'd only use half the cores.
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
M1XN
(18 items)
 
Study Zenbook
(5 items)
 
 
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i7 4770K @ 4.2 GHz ASUS Maximus VI Impact MSI GTX 970 Gaming 4G 2x8 GB Kingston HyperX DDR3 @ 2400 MHz 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Crucial M4 64 GB Crucial M4 128 GB SAMSUNG Spinpoint M9T 2 TB LiteOn DL-8ATSH 
CoolingOSMonitorKeyboard
Noctua NH-C14 Windows 10 64-bit ViewSonic VP2770 Vortex Pok3r 
PowerCaseMouseMouse Pad
Corsair SF600 NCASE M1 V2.5 Logitech G502 SteelSeries QcK+ 
AudioOther
HiFiMan HE-400 Logitech C920 
CPUGraphicsRAMHard Drive
i5-3317 GT 620M 2 GB soldered + 8 GB Corsair OCZ Vertex 3 120 
OS
Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit 
  hide details  
Reply
post #9 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Pie View Post
dont' bother

i don't even understand why your trying to correct some dude on youtube

just let it be and let him roll in his stupidity
The irony... don't you feel like that on here sometimes...
Purpleannex
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 2500k Z68 Extreme4gen3 Gainward GTX 470 @ 740Mhz 8GB Mushkin Blackline LV (2x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz 9... 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
128GB Crucial M225 SSD 2 x 500gb 500GbB samsung 500GbB samsung Samsung SH-B083L 8x BD Combo 
OSMonitorPowerCase
Windows 7 64-bit LG W2486L LED 24" 1080p Antech True power new 750W FT-02 B-W 
  hide details  
Reply
Purpleannex
(15 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
i5 2500k Z68 Extreme4gen3 Gainward GTX 470 @ 740Mhz 8GB Mushkin Blackline LV (2x4GB) DDR3 1600MHz 9... 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
128GB Crucial M225 SSD 2 x 500gb 500GbB samsung 500GbB samsung Samsung SH-B083L 8x BD Combo 
OSMonitorPowerCase
Windows 7 64-bit LG W2486L LED 24" 1080p Antech True power new 750W FT-02 B-W 
  hide details  
Reply
post #10 of 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by B!0HaZard View Post
No, I didn't mean that HT threads = physical cores, I meant that he said that 4 threads on 2 cores used by a game means that it only supports 2 cores, so on an i5, it'd only use half the cores.
Games that use 2 cores only may use more than 2 threads. My computer right now has 804 threads running.

Threads and cores becomes confusing, there is no reason to talk about threads at all really. All that matters is how many cores a game can use.

If a game only supports 2 cores it will only use 2 cores. Windows will attempt to even out the load showing usage on all 4 cores, however max total usage for that game will be seen at 50% max total core usage on a x4, less on a x6, more on a x3, 100% on a x2.

Likewise, windows doesn't view HT as 4 cores 8 threads, it only sees 8 cores. If you have an x4 with HT and the game uses only 2 cores you will only see 25% max cpu usage. If a game supports 4 cores, on that same chip you'll see a max usage of 50%.

A core 2 duo will perform nearly the same as a core 2 quad in a game that supports only 2 cores. If the game supports 4 cores then the core 2 quad will be much faster than a core 2 duo. Having extra cores than a game can use only helps in providing additional power to run other system tasks while gaming, its a small difference.


Edit: When he says they don't use four cores because it's using 2 cores 4 threads @ 40% usage he's wrong. It's using 4 cores, 40% usage denotes that he's approaching a point where his cpu will begin to bottleneck the gpus in that game.
Edited by BallaTheFeared - 2/4/11 at 5:16am
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i5 2500K P8P67 PRO NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT G-Skill A-Data G-Skill 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveOS
A-Data Crucial M4 64GB + 1TB F3 Spinpoint $155 LS/DL DVD RW $?? Windows 8 64-bit "Epic Registry" Edition 
MonitorPowerCase
ASUS 21.5 1920x1080 2ms $135 CORSAIR HX850 $120 Mother Earth $free 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsGraphics
Intel Core i5 2500K P8P67 PRO NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 NVIDIA GeForce GTX 470 
GraphicsRAMRAMRAM
NVIDIA GeForce 9800 GT G-Skill A-Data G-Skill 
RAMHard DriveOptical DriveOS
A-Data Crucial M4 64GB + 1TB F3 Spinpoint $155 LS/DL DVD RW $?? Windows 8 64-bit "Epic Registry" Edition 
MonitorPowerCase
ASUS 21.5 1920x1080 2ms $135 CORSAIR HX850 $120 Mother Earth $free 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Intel CPUs
Overclock.net › Forums › Intel › Intel CPUs › i7 hyper-threading