Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › Water cooling performance question
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Water cooling performance question

post #1 of 16
Thread Starter 
My dad keeps insisting to me that heatpipes are the best way of taking heat off a processor, but obviously water cooling works best for computer cooling. My dad is an engineer with about 30 years in his field, so I can't help but take his word, plus the experience I do have in physics and chemistry suggest that he was correct.

So my question is, why do water coolers work better than heat pipe designs? The only thing I can imagine is the fact that air coolers have heatsinks within the case. My dad thinks it might be the quality of heat pipes that computer cooling companies use. Anyone?


If this is true, would hooking a processor up to something like a NH-D14, and then rigging up water cooling to go through the heat sink work well? This would essentially be a normal air cooler, except the heat sink functions as an enormous water block.
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
post #2 of 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by imblind View Post
My dad keeps insisting to me that heatpipes are the best way of taking heat off a processor, but obviously water cooling works best for computer cooling. My dad is an engineer with about 30 years in his field, so I can't help but take his word, plus the experience I do have in physics and chemistry suggest that he was correct.

So my question is, why do water coolers work better than heat pipe designs? The only thing I can imagine is the fact that air coolers have heatsinks within the case. My dad thinks it might be the quality of heat pipes that computer cooling companies use. Anyone?


If this is true, would hooking a processor up to something like a NH-D14, and then rigging up water cooling to go through the heat sink work well? This would essentially be a normal air cooler, except the heat sink functions as an enormous water block.
Maybe it depends on how much surface area the heatpipes lead to?
The Behemoth
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
1090t @ 4.2 MSI 890FXA-GD70 Gigabyte non-reference 5850 4gb OCZ Platinum DDR3 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
2x 500gb Spinpoint F3 MSI DVD-RW Ubuntu 10.10 I-INC 25", Asus 24" 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Das Model S Professional Ultra LSP 750w 700D Purple Logitech 
  hide details  
Reply
The Behemoth
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
1090t @ 4.2 MSI 890FXA-GD70 Gigabyte non-reference 5850 4gb OCZ Platinum DDR3 
Hard DriveOptical DriveOSMonitor
2x 500gb Spinpoint F3 MSI DVD-RW Ubuntu 10.10 I-INC 25", Asus 24" 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Das Model S Professional Ultra LSP 750w 700D Purple Logitech 
  hide details  
Reply
post #3 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by amantonas View Post
Maybe it depends on how much surface area the heatpipes lead to?
Yeah, I've been thinking that the performance increase with water cooling has to do with the heat sink setup. That's why I've been thinking that a hybrid solution would work incredibly.

I'm thinking about doing something like this for my next build.
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
post #4 of 16
Most heatpipes contain water (to some degree) inside with very low pressure. PV=nRT, lower pressure = lower temps. So water will evaporate at lower than 100 C. So it vaporises goes up in the heatpipes transfers the energy to the heatsink and becomes cool, condense and goes back. As water it doesnt need to evaporate. It just absorb as much water and goes away. So basicly water-cooling is faster and alittle more efficient,thus leading to lower temps.
Just my 2cents on the subject.
The bottleneck
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E5400 @ 3.5 stock volts Msi g31 (no voltage control) Gtx 460 Hawk (Talons attack) 2g Ddr2 @ 651 
Hard DriveOS
250 WD Win 7 64-bit Ultimate 
  hide details  
Reply
The bottleneck
(13 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
E5400 @ 3.5 stock volts Msi g31 (no voltage control) Gtx 460 Hawk (Talons attack) 2g Ddr2 @ 651 
Hard DriveOS
250 WD Win 7 64-bit Ultimate 
  hide details  
Reply
post #5 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoBeeJ View Post
Most heatpipes contain water (to some degree) inside with very low pressure. PV=nRT, lower pressure = lower temps. So water will evaporate at lower than 100 C. So it vaporises goes up in the heatpipes transfers the energy to the heatsink and becomes cool, condense and goes back. As water it doesnt need to evaporate. It just absorb as much water and goes away. So basicly water-cooling is faster and alittle more efficient,thus leading to lower temps.
Just my 2cents on the subject.
I think this is incorrect. My understanding is that water cooling functions by transferring the heat from processor to the water and then cooling the water. There is no change of phase at any step in this process. In a heat pipe, water or alcohol or whatever is within the pipe instead boils up and then condenses on the other end of the heat pipe. Boiling the water should be orders of magnitude better at cooling than simple heat transfer from the copper block to the water because it loses energy during the phase change.

edit: I just read on Wikipedia that if a heat pipe is heated up too much, the working fluid will no longer condense, and the heat pipe becomes essentially just a copper rod. Is it possible that this is happening in CPU coolers, or does this happen at significantly higher temperatures?
Edited by imblind - 2/8/11 at 3:13am
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
post #6 of 16
The answer is down to the coolants used. Water is a lot more dense, and can thus extract a lot more heat, which then transports it to (usually) a radiator with far greater surface area than any heatsink. A high quality heatpipe will extract more heat than the same volume of water, but with water cooling, you are pushing a LOT more coolant past the CPU than is in any heatpipe.

Phase changes are a very efficient process for heat transfer, but the only way to use it AND get good cooling, is to use either a phase device or a large amount of phase changing fluid, both of which are extremely expensive.
Heatpipes only have a tiny amount inside, which seriously limits the efficiency.
Edited by allikat - 2/8/11 at 3:16am
Ryzen 5 1600
(12 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 5 1600 MSI B350 Gaming Plus Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1060 WINDFORCE2 OC 16GB (2x8GB) Corsair DDR4 Vengeance LED, PC4-24... 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
256GB Samsung PM961 Polaris M.2 NVMe  1TB Toshiba DT01ACA100 3.5" HDD, SATA III  Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo Windows 10 64 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Unicomp Model M 650W EVGA SuperNOVA G1, 80PLUS Gold, Full Modular Kolink Luminosity Cooler Master Reaper Aluminium 
  hide details  
Reply
Ryzen 5 1600
(12 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
AMD Ryzen 5 1600 MSI B350 Gaming Plus Gigabyte GeForce GTX 1060 WINDFORCE2 OC 16GB (2x8GB) Corsair DDR4 Vengeance LED, PC4-24... 
Hard DriveHard DriveCoolingOS
256GB Samsung PM961 Polaris M.2 NVMe  1TB Toshiba DT01ACA100 3.5" HDD, SATA III  Cooler Master Hyper 212 Evo Windows 10 64 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Unicomp Model M 650W EVGA SuperNOVA G1, 80PLUS Gold, Full Modular Kolink Luminosity Cooler Master Reaper Aluminium 
  hide details  
Reply
post #7 of 16
Water is better at dissipating heat then metals are. The surface area of water is greater than a piece of metal, essentially watercooling is like a giant heatpipe. Heat just gets dissipated by the radiator fins by the air being pushed through by the fans.

CPU~~~>Heat--->Water--->Radiator Fins--->Air Passing Through

CPU~~~>Heat--->Heatpipe--->Air

In water cooling heat gets transferred and dissipated by water, metal, and then air.

In a heat pipe heat gets transferred to metal and then air.

I suspect the large surface area of water and the extra step in transferring of heat is why it's a lot better.
Skylake Is Here!
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700K Batch #L535B021 4.7Ghz @ 1.296V GIGABYTE G1 Gaming GA-Z170X-Gaming 7 EVGA Geforce GTX 970 SSC ACX 2.0+ G.SKILL TridentZ 16GB DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB  Crucial BX100 250 GB SanDisk SSDPlus 240 GB NZXT Kraken X61  
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 8.1 & 10 Dell UltraSharp 2913WM 21:9 2560x1080 Ducky Shine 4, CODE WASD, Deck Legend, G710+ EVGA SuperNova G2 850W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ATX Mid-Tower Ducky Secret SteelSeries Fostex Purple Heart TH-X00 
Audio
AKG K553 Pro, Philips SHP9500, Superlux 668B, S... 
  hide details  
Reply
Skylake Is Here!
(17 items)
 
  
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel i7 6700K Batch #L535B021 4.7Ghz @ 1.296V GIGABYTE G1 Gaming GA-Z170X-Gaming 7 EVGA Geforce GTX 970 SSC ACX 2.0+ G.SKILL TridentZ 16GB DDR4 3000 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveCooling
Samsung 950 Pro M.2 512GB  Crucial BX100 250 GB SanDisk SSDPlus 240 GB NZXT Kraken X61  
OSMonitorKeyboardPower
Windows 8.1 & 10 Dell UltraSharp 2913WM 21:9 2560x1080 Ducky Shine 4, CODE WASD, Deck Legend, G710+ EVGA SuperNova G2 850W 
CaseMouseMouse PadAudio
Phanteks Enthoo Evolv ATX Mid-Tower Ducky Secret SteelSeries Fostex Purple Heart TH-X00 
Audio
AKG K553 Pro, Philips SHP9500, Superlux 668B, S... 
  hide details  
Reply
post #8 of 16
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by anoob View Post
Water is better at dissipating heat then metals are. The surface area of water is greater than a piece of metal, essentially watercooling is like a giant heatpipe. Heat just gets dissipated by the radiator fins by the air being pushed through by the fans.

CPU~~~>Heat--->Water--->Radiator Fins--->Air Passing Through

CPU~~~>Heat--->Heatpipe--->Air

In water cooling heat gets transferred and dissipated by water, metal, and then air.

In a heat pipe heat gets transferred to metal and then air.

I suspect the large surface area of water and the extra step in transferring of heat is why it's a lot better.
I think you're confusing a heat pipe, which has a working fluid inside of it, with a copper rod. The heat pipes used in air coolers are actually hollow and contain a working fluid which undergoes phase change on either end of the pipe. The cooler is to cool the condensation end, and the other end is where the fluid boils off (because the whole pipe has very low pressure).
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
post #9 of 16
It's the fact that it takes a lot of energy to heat up the room-temp water.
The cooling of the water is easy, compared to having the heat in metal, which doesn't "conduct" heat as well as water that warms up, is transported and cooled down..
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500K 5GHz@1.35V Asrock Z68 Extreme3 gen 3 Asus 7850 DC2 Ripjaws 1333-5-7-5 1.5V 
Hard DrivePowerMouse
Samsung F1 320gb Antec TruePower Trio 650W MIE 3.0 <3 
  hide details  
Reply
    
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
2500K 5GHz@1.35V Asrock Z68 Extreme3 gen 3 Asus 7850 DC2 Ripjaws 1333-5-7-5 1.5V 
Hard DrivePowerMouse
Samsung F1 320gb Antec TruePower Trio 650W MIE 3.0 <3 
  hide details  
Reply
post #10 of 16
Thread Starter 
Guys, a heatpipe is not a copper rod. So far allikat is the only one who is suggesting something plausible.

@allikat - would this hypothetically suggest that if a cooler simply had more heatpipes it may actually exceed the performance of a water cooler. If the only issue is volume of coolant, doesn't the fact that phase change is much more effective than normal water cooling play into our favor (if we were say building a heat sink with a lot of heat pipes).
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
Light Websurfing
(12 items)
 
   
CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
3.3GHz i7 5820K MSI X99A SLI PLUS MSI GTX 970 Gaming 100ME 32GB G.Skill Ripjaws 4 Series 
Hard DriveHard DriveOptical DriveCooling
1TB Samsung EVO 850 500GB Samsung EVO 840 ASUS DVD Burner Noctua DH-15S 
OSMonitorMonitorPower
Windows 10 Pro, Full Seiki Pro 40" 4K Samsung Syncmaster 2693HM EVGA SuperNOVA 650 GS 80+ GOLD 
CPUGraphicsGraphicsRAM
i7-4710HQ Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600 Nvidia 870m 16 DDR3 
Hard DriveHard DriveOSMonitor
3x 128GB SSD 1TB HDD Windows 8.1 Samsung Syncmaster 24" 
Mouse
Raxer Taipan 
  hide details  
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Water Cooling
Overclock.net › Forums › Cooling › Water Cooling › Water cooling performance question