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[ZeroPaid] Sony Demands IP Addresses of YouTube PS3 Hack Viewers - Page 26

post #251 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Radius Kid View Post
Valid points,but I'm still wondering is:

Were the users informed of the SCOPE of the updates or were they just told they were "security" updates?
I can't see a raft of Linux users installing the O/S and then killing the install with an update they KNOW will hurt them.
SOME of them must have read the terms before doing this?

According to the Airforce article,when they sent their machines in for repair,the firmware was updated and the machines were rendered useless to them.
I don't see that as accepting an update.

I do see it as more of Sony's shenanigans though.
Remember the CD virus fiasco I mentioned earlier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
The firmware release notes had clear indication that the OtherOS feature was being removed. It was also announced well before (by that I mean a few days before) the update even released. I always read release notes, though usually after I updated already.

http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/...-v3-21-update/

That scenario where Sony removed OtherOS from the Air Force's units and sent them back is no doubt pretty wrong, since Sony well knew that they were ONLY running Linux on those PS3s; they didn't even have Blu-Ray capability.
The Airforce situation is understandably frustrating, though it sounds as if the Airforce lost all of its consoles due to the update, which isn't true. The only PS3's that became useless to them were the ones that needed to be repaired, not all of them. Not to mention, they technically did agree to the update:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Terms of Service
Service Policy

You understand and acknowledge that any time SCEA services your PS3™ system (either within the Warranty Period or under a separate service arrangement), it may become necessary for SCEA to provide certain services to your PS3™ system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCEA guidelines. Such services may include the installation of the latest software or firmware updates, or service or replacement of the PS3™ hard disk or the PS3™ system with a new or refurbished product. You acknowledge and agree that some services may change your current settings, cause a removal of cosmetic stickers or system skins, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. You should back up your hard disk regularly to prevent loss or alteration of data, although some content cannot be backed up and must be reinstalled by the user. You should also remove any peripherals, non-PS3™ system components, and any content that you consider proprietary, private, or confidential before you send in your PS3™ system for service. SCEA shall not be liable for damages resulting from your failure to comply with the foregoing, or any instructions provided to you by SCEA. SCEA reserves the right to refuse service or void the warranty of any PS3™ system that has been modified or tampered with.

Edited by Zinxe - 2/13/11 at 1:55pm
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post #252 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Yea, that's kind of a big defense in Sony's favor and it's likely what threw the lawsuit out the window.

The way I draw out the session:

Sony: "Ok, what could you guys possibly be doing on Linux that is so amazingly out of this world and affects your PS3 experience so tremendously?"

Customer 1: "Ehh... well, I never really used the OtherOS feature, I'm just here... just cause."

Customer 2: "I plead the 5th." (Obvious pirate)

Customer 3: "I am a professional software programmer and used Linux on PS3 for educational purposes to learn the Linux system, but haven't really suffered any monetary damages from the removal of OtherOS." (Legitimate plaintiff)

Customer 4: "Well, we're the U.S. Air Force, we can't really go into detail on what we used Linux for, but now all the PS3s we bought are useless to us. We can't detail you what our losses were either." (Legitimate plaintiff)

Court: "Well, since no serious damages were caused and no one can show proof of false advertising, we rule in favor of Sony."

Customers suing:

LOL!
I wonder if the USAF is going to pursue a lawsuit or is Sony going to quietly put their PS3's back the way the were?
Maybe they'll be using Geohot's hack?
Naw...would void the warranty.
I just thought of something:

If the machine is out of warranty and you're paying for the repair,can you tell them no firmware updates?
It is your dime paying for it.
Edited by The Radius Kid - 2/13/11 at 2:00pm
post #253 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
The Airforce situation is understandably frustrating, though it sounds as if the Airforce lost all of its consoles due to the update, which isn't true. Not to mention, they technically did agree to the update:
They may have dropped the ball on that one,if I read the service agreement correctly.
It basically says when you bring a PS3 in for service,they can do to it as they see fit.
I wonder if there's a way to tell them not to disable the other O/S feature when it goes in?
Oops...see above post.


You guys might find this video interesting,if you have some time:


Edited by The Radius Kid - 2/13/11 at 2:13pm
post #254 of 278
Quote:

I would hate having cheaters playing online with me, or having excellent development diminish due to piracy sales drop. It will be like playing on a PC.
The real value of a ps3 game is 10-15 $. Unless you call being ripped off as 'excellent development' i will stick to cheaper and better PC games. At least i know where my money goes to.
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post #255 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by pzyko80 View Post
@ zinxe i get your point and i for one do not support and hate malicious hackers and cheaters im just trying to say that if im paying for a 300 dollar hardware shouldn't i have a say on what software i want on it as long as its within legal bounds like me installing an after market burning software in windows cause i do not like the one that is provided
Been argued. Windows is shared-source, PS3's software isn't.

Open source: Totally open for anyone to freely grab, modify, and redistribute.

Share source: Mostly open to code programs for free and commercial distribution, but after some approval. < Windows. The whole PURPOSE of Windows is to allow you to install any Windows software you please so long as you do not violate any OTHER laws. Piracy, child pornography, etc.

Closed source: Totally closed for any sort of decompiling or coding apps for without extensive permission and licensing rights. Analogically, Geo developed a "game" for the PS3 without seeking proper approval and licensing from Sony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
The Airforce situation is understandably frustrating, though it sounds as if the Airforce lost all of its consoles due to the update, which isn't true. The only PS3's that became useless to them were the ones that needed to be repaired, not all of them. Not to mention, they technically did agree to the update:
I wasn't aware that the Air Force only sent in a FEW PS3s, good share.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Radius Kid View Post
LOL!
I wonder if the USAF is going to pursue a lawsuit or is Sony going to quietly put their PS3's back the way the were?
Maybe they'll be using Geohot's hack?
Naw...would void the warranty.
I just thought of something:

If the machine is out of warranty and you're paying for the repair,can you tell them no firmware updates?
It is your dime paying for it.
I don't think you can DEMAND Sony to do so, but I have a feeling that in the Air Force's case, they would have made an exception. My guess is the Air Force ASSUMED they were going to receive the same PS3s back without any changes. Their error! Had they known about the OtherOS removal in the new firmware and the fact that Sony updates any PS3s that are repaired, they would have asked, and again I feel Sony would have worked with them.

Zinxe, this guy is a winner, isn't he? He has probably been the single other OCN member that can comprehend and collaborate with our arguments, and have a more professional discussion other than "lol ur rong." Radius, I applaud you and have full respect for your earlier views; you seem open-minded about things. I hate when people can't shift their views out of their current state and into the eyes of Sony and the laws, such as intellectual property rights.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/13/11 at 2:56pm
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post #256 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
There have already been many cases of the PS3 crack defacing online games. Have you read the articles on Joystiq, Kotaku, and the alike, where these "hackers" have completely trashed the online play for CoD?
No, I haven't. Have these been a persistent issue, and have these cases been specifically linked to the OtherOS feature?

Actually, can you link me to any of these articles?

Quote:
There will be a fraction that uses it for malicious entertainment, there will be a larger use that uses it for piracy, and there will be smaller fraction to use it for legit purposes. Considering how easy it is for this particular crack, a large number of people will use the crack. Not to mention, the large number of sheeple revolutionist who want to stick it to the man and do it out of spite.
I explained my view on the large-number small-number argument. Of course, in case the possibility of using the feature for hacks is indeed real and the damages caused by such hacks would indeed be worse than the "damages" caused by removal of the feature, it's a valid point; of course, I'd do a little damage if it indeed does prevent big damage. However, like I said, and with the little searching and reading that I've done, I haven't found anything that does actually "prove" that the threat and potential for damage was as big as it was made out to be.

Quote:
What people seem to be missing is, they can apply this crack legally. They are allowed to use the crack, at least for now.
See, here's a problem though. Sure, you can apply the crack legally, but 1) you shouldn't have to do it in the first place, 2) someone making a workaround to get back a feature shouldn't excuse its removal in the first place, 3) like you said, the crack is allowed "at least for now" - but the way Sony is going, that'll be a no go as well.

Quote:
However, Geo is the one guilty for creating the crack. He is being punished for essentially forging signatures, extortion, etc. Not to mention, re-releasing reverse engineered copyrighted content to exploit a closed source system. So, no innocent parties are being punished here.
Not sure what you mean by this. Like I said, there's more to it than simply the legal side. White it might be technically illegal, and I wouldn't necessarily use it myself, I can't say that I'd oppose this workaround or making/distribution of such workarounds (in the light of my current knowledge and understanding, of course).

Also, extortion?

Quote:
For everyone else, you can apply the crack and you won't be sued
...
So yeah, do what you want with the hardware you paid for.
See my response to the third quote.

Quote:
Though what Geo did was against the terms. I'm not sure if I'm being clear here or not, I hope you all can understand.
See, it is against the terms, but like I said before, there's more to it than just the law.

Quote:
He has probably been the single other OCN member that can comprehend and collaborate with our arguments, and have a more professional discussion other than "lol ur rong."
I like how you imply almost everyone opposing Sony is a narrow-minded stubborn derp.
post #257 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomfunk View Post
No, I haven't. Have these been a persistent issue, and have these cases been specifically linked to the OtherOS feature?

Actually, can you link me to any of these articles?

I explained my view on the large-number small-number argument. Of course, in case the possibility of using the feature for hacks is indeed real and the damages caused by such hacks would indeed be worse than the "damages" caused by removal of the feature, it's a valid point; of course, I'd do a little damage if it indeed does prevent big damage. However, like I said, and with the little searching and reading that I've done, I haven't found anything that does actually "prove" that the threat and potential for damage was as big as it was made out to be.

See, here's a problem though. Sure, you can apply the crack legally, but 1) you shouldn't have to do it in the first place, 2) someone making a workaround to get back a feature shouldn't excuse its removal in the first place, 3) like you said, the crack is allowed "at least for now" - but the way Sony is going, that'll be a no go as well.

Not sure what you mean by this. Like I said, there's more to it than simply the legal side. White it might be technically illegal, and I wouldn't necessarily use it myself, I can't say that I'd oppose this workaround or making/distribution of such workarounds (in the light of my current knowledge and understanding, of course).

Also, extortion?

See my response to the third quote.

See, it is against the terms, but like I said before, there's more to it than just the law.

I like how you imply almost everyone opposing Sony is a narrow-minded stubborn derp.
http://www.crunchgear.com/2011/01/17...ing-is-ruined/
http://attackofthefanboy.com/news/tr...k-ps3-ruining/
http://n4g.com/news/683014/titanrevi.../com#c-4811546
http://tipsneeded.com/how-to-play-pirated-games-on-ps3/
http://www.gamespot.com/news/6286435.html
http://www.examiner.com/video-games-...e-gone-too-far
http://gamerant.com/ps3-trophy-hack-tao-61254/

It took me literally ~45 seconds to find all of those.

There is more than a legal side, but Sony is using the legal side to protect all the other sides. You can argue ethics, but we've been over that already. Monetary, only monetary damages can come from this. Integrity, for the masses, this hack can only damage online interaction. What other sides could there be? On every imaginable side, Sony has taken the proper action to effectively make the most efficient and logical steps to further enhance, or repair for this matter, their content.

Someone going around to bring back a removed feature shouldn't be allowed to begin with, at least not while keeping/using the original firmware. They removed it for a reason, they didn't do it just to be jerks.

Also, the damage from the masses must be taken in consideration. I know everyone wants to believe the hacks would be used for good purposes, but that is never how things like this is fully used. Take a look at things like Limewire, Frostwire, Bearshare, etc. They can be used, and claimed to be created for, legit purposes. They were made to quickly share free, open source, awesome things like linux distros. Though, look at the countless number of people who use it for the purpose of pirating.

Edit: And he is right, almost everyone who opposes Sony is narrow-minded stubborn derp. Most people blindly shout viva revolution, and believe they bought full rights to the firmware.
Edited by Zinxe - 2/13/11 at 4:41pm
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post #258 of 278
Not sure what those articles are meant to prove. None of them even suggest that the otherOS feature might be used to hack the PS3; none of them even reference OtherOS. As a matter of fact, several of them are about GeoHot's hack, which quite possibly wouldn't exist if Sony hadn't removed the OtherOS feature.

A funny quote from the first article you linked:
Quote:
To think that all of this could have been avoided had Sony not decided to remove the Install Other OS option. Oops.
Quote:
On every imaginable side, Sony has taken the proper action to effectively make the most efficient and logical steps to further enhance, or repair for this matter, their content.
Proper action... effectively... most efficient and logical?

I honestly doubt suing the guy, or collecting IP addresses from YouTube, is the "most efficient" action. Honestly, even "just tell us how you did it, stop doing it, and we'll give you your otherOS & be done with it" might have worked better. Using a random number for an encryption algorithm that expects a random number might also be a viable option. Suing a guy, even when he is at wrong, is a terrible PR move and even if the guy deserves all he gets, it's still going to only make matters worse for Sony by pissing off all your "viva la revolution" types, which is one of the last things you'd want to do to protect content that might end up on the internet.

Quote:
Someone going around to bring back a removed feature shouldn't be allowed to begin with, at least not while keeping/using the original firmware. They removed it for a reason, they didn't do it just to be jerks.
But was the reason valid? You might think so, but someone else may well not. It's easy to say "oh well, only a few people use it, it's for the greater good" unless it actually affects you and you think their reasoning is bollocks.

Quote:
Also, the damage from the masses must be taken in consideration. I know everyone wants to believe the hacks would be used for good purposes, but that is never how things like this is fully used.Take a look at things like Limewire, Frostwire, Bearshare, etc. They can be used, and claimed to be created for, legit purposes. They were made to quickly share free, open source, awesome things like linux distros. Though, look at the countless number of people who use it for the purpose of pirating.
I'm aware of these figures and I can distinctly recall having in some form acknowledged this... I still don't oppose any P2P software/technologies, simply because there are so many legitimate uses for them, even when they're mostly used for illegitimate purposes.

Quote:
Edit: And he is right, almost everyone who opposes Sony is narrow-minded stubborn derp. Most people blindly shout viva revolution, and believe they bought full rights to the firmware.
I doubt this. Maybe even majority, but I'm really sceptical about "almost everyone".
post #259 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Radius, I applaud you and have full respect for your earlier views; you seem open-minded about things. I hate when people can't shift their views out of their current state and into the eyes of Sony and the laws, such as intellectual property rights.

Thanks for that.
My big problem with this whole thing is Sony's removing of the ability to load an alternate O/S into the PS3.
I do respect their right to protect their game content from freeloaders.
Unfortunately it looks like the two go hand in hand.
Maybe they're working on their own expanded O/S?

BTW: I watched the whole video I posted and the REAL interesting stuff starts around the 20 minute mark and goes to the end.
Watch it,you'll see.
These guys appear to have it in for Sony.
I wouldn't want them after me.
post #260 of 278
Quote:
Originally Posted by bomfunk View Post
I like how you imply almost everyone opposing Sony is a narrow-minded stubborn derp.
I haven't been implying that one bit. He's the first that actually has the logical sense in understanding what Zinxe and I have been saying. Most of the rest of people here have been just completely denying everything and coming up with ridiculous analogies that I have had to play along with and correct them on.
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