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[PC Gamer] 100 Best PC games of all time. - Page 22

post #211 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peremptor View Post
From most of the posts it seems it's heavily slanted toward games released in this last decade. Guess it's in their interests to promote the idea that these are the best of times for PC gamers .
Oh that would be forgivable considering a lot of the readers are young and inexperienced with anything from the previous 30 years. But these guys pull archaic BS out of their butts and list it in the top 50 while leaving games like Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy and MANY MANY MANY others off the list. They need to have their in a dark alley.

~Ceadder
 
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post #212 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
Oh that would be forgivable considering a lot of the readers are young and inexperienced with anything from the previous 30 years. But these guys pull archaic BS out of their butts and list it in the top 50 while leaving games like Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy and MANY MANY MANY others off the list. They need to have their in a dark alley.

~Ceadder
I fully agree that their list is a lot more subjective and based on their own personal preferences than a real 'TOP 100' should aspire to be. They should have just titled the article more accurately and called it 'OUR TOP 100'.
post #213 of 280
i really dont agrre whit the top 10
portal in 8th total war ***
oblivion was the worst elder scroll...
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post #214 of 280
I'm beginning to agree with a lot of people on here. Disappointed with the list overall.
post #215 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by thiru View Post
All of those apply to SC more or less, except for the market trading. It's simply tightly packaged into a much faster gameplay.
As for "aoe is for thinkers", please. You think SC became competitive without thought involved in the gameplay? you think you can beat someone in AoE who has better mechanics than you simply because you think 'more' or 'better' than he does? it goes hand in hand.
Tell me where the hell did you read the questions that you were throwing back at him so i can laugh at you because he didn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuashke View Post
lets take a look about what you said for aoe:

age stages: yes, there are ages in starcraft as well, they just dont have names. these 'ages' have specific timings and advancing in an 'age' (tech) has advantages and drawbacks

land control: dont know exactly what you mean here. if you are talking about map control, then this is an integral part of starcraft too. if you dont control the map, you cant take more expansions and it becomes harder to pressure an opponent.

resources: i think you are underrating starcraft here, because theres only 2 different types of resources. in games, you need to determine when to cut worker production to build units (this applies mostly to zerg but to everyone as well) as well as the mechanics of crunching out workers. a skilled player needs to judge when to expand and when he can be greedy with workers

market: dont know what this is, i think its to do with trading? if so, then yes. starcraft doesnt have this

build selections not 100% on ur meaning, but build orders are very prominent in starcraft. build orders shape everything that happens in the game (your resource intake, your unit production, your tech, everything) and play an integral role. there are hard and soft counters to alot of builds, and there is always a degree of luck and judgment required. this is not only planning but also 'clicking' and responsiveness.

also, the units your produce are very important in determining a victor. an example i think that spells this out is ZvT from the zerg's perspective. with limited resources, you need to find a balance in the early/mid game between drones ( more drones = more economy, more risky but more payoff later), zerglings as a cheap mineral unit, lurkers/scourges/defilers as heavy gas units. if you produce too little scourge, the terran can mass up a cloud of science vessels which can spell your doom. if you make too many scourge, you cant handle his infantry force. this works likewise for terran

faction strengths/weakness: theres only 3 factions in starcraft, but they are totally varied and play out totally differently. zerg are gas-intensive in zvt and thus require more gas bases than terran to stay in the game. terran are more efficient per resource but are slower in overall speed. in zvp, protoss units are bulkier and last longer, which is a strength, but losing a big chunk of your protoss force is much more terrible than a zerg losing his, as zerg units are skinny and can be pumped out much more easily. this can also be bad for zerg, as a protoss 'deathball' (a large group of gas-intensive protoss units) can easily tear through an equivalent amount of zerg units without losing very much. this interlinks with build orders and ages, as certain units have the upper hand at certain times.

offensive/defensive formations: dont think that starcraft is inferior in this regard just because we dont have a fancy button that spreads our units our for us in a certain formation. stuff like flanking, unit positioning when attacking, wallins, using ramps, even stuff like mutalisk stacking are all important important important things in starcraft.

why do i find starcraft interesting? as a long time player and watcher, starcraft constantly evolves. old ways of playing are replaced with new, old dominant players are replaced with new dominant players. players are constantly getting better. not just mechanically better, they are getting smarter and more receptive to new styles. yes, it is impossible to become a bonjwa without raw skills, but there are plenty of pros that have the skills but will never ever be at the top because they lack game sense, decision making and reading skills. even stuff like the maps change. every season, new maps are introduced to make stuff more interesting and varied.

what does starcraft do better than aoe? i believe starcraft is a game better suited to using mechanical skills to win games. players can use their macro and multitasking skills to do things others cannot. also, starcraft is relatively balanced (in general, obviously stuff like cheese and gayness comes into play too.) starcraft has incredible strategic and tactical depth. minute tweakings to builds can have a drastic effect on the outcome of the game, as well as things like production/production cutting, army composition, positioning, harass etc. however, as the starcraft scene is much more accessible, it is hard for me to make a concrete decision about this. also, as you said, aoe2 is more of a thinking game therefore it is impossible to compare the SC rts to the aoe rts.

as you said, starcraft is relatively balanced and fast paced. i guess it really comes down to personal enjoyment when rating games but there is no doubt that the top professional starcraft players in korea are easily the best RTS players and most likely the best gamers in the world. ill definitely cop flak for this, seeing as theres probably alot of counter strike players here, but yes. in 99% of the skills used in games, id have to say starcraft pros are better. even reaction times, something you might not think much of in starcraft but is very important. when some terran homo drops some marines in ur base, you gotta react fast with a bunch of zerglings to stop him from killing your defiler mound. youve gotta react fast to scouting information
You put alot of effort in it so your post is deserving of an answer.

Im not going to argue which game has the deeper strategy but i have to point out that there are no such thing as map control in sc and resources are much easily managed.

The thing sc has is actually has is what i would call pesudo map control , where the losing player is afraid to move too far away from the base knowing that his opponent's army is bigger than theirs which is typical for games like this.

One good example is the air advantage as zerg , though you may not physically see or 'control' any part of the map , your opponent is afraid to move out just because he can't beat your air army when confronted; all this is just a psychological factor when playing the game.In a game like AoE2 , you can basically get screwed just because you do not have constant LoS over an area because ranged units can basically kite infinitely when done by a skillful player and i can't begin to tell you the power of a straight tower push vs the amount of resources committed as opposed to say the most common Protoss photon push.

All these tie in with resource control , since in sc the maps are PRESET and never change , i can study the map for 5 hours and know the place inside out and areas where i am fighting to my advantage whereas maps on AoE2 are RANDOM where i do not even know how much resources i am given on this side of the map or how well protected they are.So since resources in AoE2 are given more precisely; proportional to the area of the map , even controlling 60% of the map makes a huge resource advantage over your opponent.

I have to call BS on your last 3 paragraphs.It may be your opinion , but that isn't anything that can decisively trump what both games have to offer.This 'constantly evolving' thing is what i have heard said so many times that its pretty much a joke now , if you look at its 'evolution' you can see that maps , even players now are geared towards heavy macro style play of who can click more times; to produce more units efficiently than the other player.Look at the players of old , Savi0r , Boxer , NalRA , Yellow , all of them are geared towards the heavy micro playstyle.Its a 'completely different' game in the competitive scene simply because of the shift from using 10 marines to 50.This is due to the fact that there is no punishment for macroing , or same that can be said , no reward for rushing.

Let me reinforce his point here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RipperLord View Post
AOE is for thinkers. SC is for clickers.
I don't play a game where how well i click is the determinating factor to a lose or a win in terms of macro and micro.Its how well i can use what i already have to the best of my advantage.
    
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post #216 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by chia233 View Post
Tell me where the hell did you read the questions that you were throwing back at him so i can laugh at you because he didn't.



You put alot of effort in it so your post is deserving of an answer.
lol. Last time you and I argued about AoE and SC2 you never replied to my long post so I'm not even going to bother.
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post #217 of 280
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Originally Posted by Ceadderman View Post
And proof that even the Stoopid can hold down a solid job.

Their opinion is RUBBISH and anyone that has gamed in the last century knows this.

@Mac the Geek...Thanks bruh, I'll be sure to check it out.

Wicked cool $10 and compatible with Win7!!! Sweet!

~Ceadder
Again it's their opinion. Not yours, not mine, not anyone else opinion, theirs. I'm sure people think your opinion is RUBBISH too.
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post #218 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by chia233 View Post
I don't play a game where how well i click is the determinating factor to a lose or a win in terms of macro and micro.Its how well i can use what i already have to the best of my advantage.
Starcraft is not an entirely macro driven game. Boxer demonstrated how this assumption to be true. Micro is also an important factor in starcraft. However winning a match is indeed focused more on macro skills, but in some cases I've seen a few games on SC2 where the APM was not a factor to the player winning the match. And based on your tastes, COH is exactly what you're looking for. I've seen games where a single m24 tank was used to take on 4-5 axis tanks...where the m24 won.

Company of Heroes is much like the opposite to starcraft. It is driven on micromanagement. It is by far more demanding, mentally, on the player to incorporate the level of micro and tactics required in CoH than in SC.

I wasn't a big AoE player; competitively anyways. I played it more for building pretty bases and skirmishes. So I can't really comment on a comparison between SC and AoE. Though starcraft should indeed be higher on that list.
Edited by Domino - 2/26/11 at 1:55pm
post #219 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHoff View Post
Again it's their opinion. Not yours, not mine, not anyone else opinion, theirs. I'm sure people think your opinion is RUBBISH too.
And those people would be wrong. Just look at their list and tell me that you being a serious gamer agree?

See point proven. You disagree with my stance that they're stoopid for compiling such a bogus list. You're wrong and I submit that I belong to the majority in this instance as proof.

So see my opinion is the only valid opinion.

I get what you're saying though so don't get the knickers in a bunch.

~Ceadder
 
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post #220 of 280
for the record, im not talking about sc2 lol. that game is junk

ill disagree with the pseudo map control thing. if you're talking about sc2, then nevermind. when i talk about map control, im not really talking about sight. its not a psychological problem, if someone controls the map, he controls everything. the resources, the terrain, all of it. it really isnt a minor thing when you let someone get control of the map and you cant wrestle control of it from them

no idea what a photon push is, is this sc2?

i dont see why you can use the resources thing. why is that something that represents a more complex and demanding game? it seems to me its more based on luck and can lead to problems like positional imbalances (i start closer to more resources than you or i start with more easily defensible resources)

its narrow minded to think that because sc has evolved into a macro style that there isnt any true evolution. a great example of a shifting style in a recent times is protoss punishment of greedy zerg play with their new zealot timing attacks. an even better example of an evolution is the 2010 mech switch, which terran have used constantly. chyeah, they still make units, but so what? will you really disregard subtle timings and compositions simply because its just 'macro?' do you really think micro is diminished? all the top players like stork and flash and jaedong have BETTER micro than the old greats anyway
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