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[PC Gamer] 100 Best PC games of all time. - Page 23

post #221 of 280
23 pages, and nothing of value has been said. Are opinion pieces generally considered 'not news', and therefore locked? If so, can lists of best games be classed as opinion pieces?
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post #222 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDeodorant View Post
23 pages, and nothing of value has been said. Are opinion pieces generally considered 'not news', and therefore locked? If so, can lists of best games be classed as opinion pieces?
depends on how you measure 'best'
post #223 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Domino View Post
Starcraft is not an entirely macro driven game. Boxer demonstrated how this assumption to be true. Micro is also an important factor in starcraft. However winning a match is indeed focused more on macro skills, but in some cases I've seen a few games on SC2 where the APM was not a factor to the player winning the match. And based on your tastes, COH is exactly what you're looking for. I've seen games where a single m24 tank was used to take on 4-5 axis tanks...where the m24 won.

Company of Heroes is much like the opposite to starcraft. It is driven on micromanagement. It is by far more demanding, mentally, on the player to incorporate the level of micro and tactics required in CoH than in SC.

I wasn't a big AoE player; competitively anyways. I played it more for building pretty bases and skirmishes. So I can't really comment on a comparison between SC and AoE. Though starcraft should indeed be higher on that list.
Well then how few and far between are those then? I've seen more ZvZ Hive games than that.If you are going to bring boxer up , look at him now , still struggling to play with the heavy macro terran players.Is it because he still lacks the skill to pull off marine drops or wraith harassment? No , its because he doesn't and isn't able to macro to the level of the top tier players due to the lack of APM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuashke View Post
for the record, im not talking about sc2 lol. that game is junk

ill disagree with the pseudo map control thing. if you're talking about sc2, then nevermind. when i talk about map control, im not really talking about sight. its not a psychological problem, if someone controls the map, he controls everything. the resources, the terrain, all of it. it really isnt a minor thing when you let someone get control of the map and you cant wrestle control of it from them

no idea what a photon push is, is this sc2?

i dont see why you can use the resources thing. why is that something that represents a more complex and demanding game? it seems to me its more based on luck and can lead to problems like positional imbalances (i start closer to more resources than you or i start with more easily defensible resources)

its narrow minded to think that because sc has evolved into a macro style that there isnt any true evolution. a great example of a shifting style in a recent times is protoss punishment of greedy zerg play with their new zealot timing attacks. an even better example of an evolution is the 2010 mech switch, which terran have used constantly. chyeah, they still make units, but so what? will you really disregard subtle timings and compositions simply because its just 'macro?' do you really think micro is diminished? all the top players like stork and flash and jaedong have BETTER micro than the old greats anyway
Photon push is just locking your opponent to their part of the map with photon cannons to gain map control.Sometimes also to deny mining on their bases.

I've never said that map control was a small thing , i actually said that AoE2 had a BIGGER EMPHASIS on map control simply because it makes scouting all the more important due to the possibility of resources being far away other than your starting resources so you have to plan and build accordingly.

Also , how new do you think a +1 zealot attack strategy is?Thats been there since 2001.How old is mech tech against zerg? Thats already done back in 2004.Thats like saying you like coke and gave me a reason for it then saying you like pepsi better a few months later with another reason then switching back to coke with an entirely new reason.Thats not new , i already knew that you like coke , unless you regard 'new' as some sort of fashion trend of what the player(s) tend to do.Im not disregarding the fact that they're able to memorize the timing and all that , but the strategy is indeed NOT new however way you refine your timings.

Yes micro is diminished.A simple POV video of any top tier player will tell you so.Tell me how long these top tier players stare at their base clicking vs the amount of time they spend to micro each individual unit and you have your answer.Also why do; when top US players give advice to other players , they emphasize more on macro than micro?The reason simply is because pumping out 4 more marines faster is more rewarding than microing to get out that extra 2 drone/scv/probe kill.Simple as that.
    
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post #224 of 280
lol

the mech switch and zealot timing are very 'new'. yes, people have gone mech before but nobody has perfected or even consistently used the mech switch the way it has been used now. are you going to argue that people have been using siege tanks since 1998 so every build ever that uses siege tanks arent new? lol, have you been watching any current starcraft? you severely underrate the importance of 'mech tech' (its not just mech). also, the +1 zealot timing attack is not the same as what was used in the past.

i dont know how you can just write off new timings for builds, considering that the difference of 10 or 20 seconds can make a biiiiig difference in the outcome of the match. YES, a strategy IS new if it differs substantially to what it was in the past

top tier players never stare at their base. yes, they go back to their base. yes, macro in most cases is seen as a better skill to learn. but no, you cannot go the distance as a pro without micro. in pvz, bisu's macro doesnt differ from anybody elses. what sets him apart is his micro, his multitask, his timings. when battles are fought, micro ALWAYS happens. nobody has the apm to micro every single unit, but yes, pros these days have much better micro and more amazing things happen from their fingertips than from the old pros.

i appreciate that youve probably watched some starcraft but i feel you should go check out some recent vods. the mech switch has been one of the greatest banes for zerg in recent times. its worthy of being a terran evolution for sure. there are numerous others, many that the top terran players have pioneered themselves. ill concede that micro is the focus anymore, but you cant discard it as some unimportant skill. there is no top pro that doesnt have impeccable micro or uses impeccable micro
post #225 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuashke View Post
lol

the mech switch and zealot timing are very 'new'. yes, people have gone mech before but nobody has perfected or even consistently used the mech switch the way it has been used now. are you going to argue that people have been using siege tanks since 1998 so every build ever that uses siege tanks arent new? lol, have you been watching any current starcraft? you severely underrate the importance of 'mech tech' (its not just mech). also, the +1 zealot timing attack is not the same as what was used in the past.

i dont know how you can just write off new timings for builds, considering that the difference of 10 or 20 seconds can make a biiiiig difference in the outcome of the match. YES, a strategy IS new if it differs substantially to what it was in the past

top tier players never stare at their base. yes, they go back to their base. yes, macro in most cases is seen as a better skill to learn. but no, you cannot go the distance as a pro without micro. in pvz, bisu's macro doesnt differ from anybody elses. what sets him apart is his micro, his multitask, his timings. when battles are fought, micro ALWAYS happens. nobody has the apm to micro every single unit, but yes, pros these days have much better micro and more amazing things happen from their fingertips than from the old pros.

i appreciate that youve probably watched some starcraft but i feel you should go check out some recent vods. the mech switch has been one of the greatest banes for zerg in recent times. its worthy of being a terran evolution for sure. there are numerous others, many that the top terran players have pioneered themselves. ill concede that micro is the focus anymore, but you cant discard it as some unimportant skill. there is no top pro that doesnt have impeccable micro or uses impeccable micro
Perfection is refinement , it doesn't mean that it hasn't been done before.The difference is so slight that it isn't even worth mentioning how much these strategies have changed simply because anything beyond a BO change is what we call the refinement of a set in stone strategy.Rushing faster is NOT a significant change.

Yes ofcourse this is 'writing it off'
Quote:
Originally Posted by chia233 View Post
Im not disregarding the fact that they're able to memorize the timing and all that , but the strategy is indeed NOT new however way you refine your timings.
Now point me a player where their micro is on par with Boxer's M&M drops.Im not saying that the game is without micro , but the game has DIMINISHED the importance of micro in FAVOR of macro.Being good at both isn't the point here.The fundemental argument has always been this point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by RipperLord View Post
AOE is for thinkers. SC is for clickers. Nuff said.
I've pretty much watched competitive play till Jon747 was taken down and i can pretty much assure you that this 'evolution' in play is in the likes of changing from coke to new coke.
    
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post #226 of 280
micro on par with boxer? try flash, best player starcraft has ever seen. not just 'on par', flash's micro is alot better. there are others, but flash is the best example of the 'perfect' player. flash's micro with ****in' everything. for other races, hydra's mutalisk micro, stork's carrier micro, kal's shuttle/reaver micro, fantasy's vultures, etc etc

the mech switch has nothing to do with rushing, and it certainly isnt a 'difference' not worth mentioning. sea even mentioned the power and variability of this strategy in a couple of his interviews. yes, people have probably done it before (hardly ever in proleague, but some random people would probably have done it) and i cant think of a single vod pre-2010 where it has been used

in the modern mech switch (note i did not say mech tech), you start with regular bio pressure to keep the zerg low on money and low on bases. i dont know who started doing the newer bio pressure (in the olden days, players would just wait until they had the 3 tanks/1 vessel to pressure, but the trend these days is your initial marine group to shut down the zerg's 3rd) but flash was doing it for a period and had some monster tvz streak.

anyways, after you gain map control and the zerg starts trying to turtle, the terran player initially uses vultures (spider mines) to pin back any reprisals and stop defiler movement. after that, the terran player fully switches to mech play, using the power and efficiency of tanks to split the map. it depends on the number of starting positions (in a big 4 player map, the terran usually has a couple of factories on the cliff of the 4th unused base, or just splits the map by taking all of their expansions (ala bloody ridge, or match point), but the result is generally the same. either starve out or an unstoppable ball.

this is fundamentally different to both regular bio and the mech play that fantasy started really showing in batoo. if you consider this the same strategy as normal mech or what not, then i dont know what to say to you. even the players recognised it man

edit: i dont know if this is getting off topic. ill gladly continue this via pm or in another thread if someone so wishes
Edited by Vuashke - 2/26/11 at 10:25pm
post #227 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDeodorant View Post
23 pages, and nothing of value has been said. Are opinion pieces generally considered 'not news', and therefore locked? If so, can lists of best games be classed as opinion pieces?
Let us have our fun just like the PC Gamer guys obviously did when they penned ' THE LIST'.

That the thread isn't doing it for you is just as subjective as the thread's content matter right?
post #228 of 280
Only one racing game and that was burnout paradise?

Are they on drugs?

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post #229 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ripperlord View Post
i don't see why it shouldn't be there. Starcraft was decent game that got fanboyism and overhyped than it was worth. Aoe2 got released the same year beating it out by a mile in every shape of gameplay, sound and graphics.
this!

Nevertheless, a top 100 is simply TOO short. There are some great games there missing that should have had been there REGARDLESS of the order wich is the least important thing when making this kind of "games compendium".
Edited by Hellknight - 2/27/11 at 1:19am
post #230 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vuashke View Post
micro on par with boxer? try flash, best player starcraft has ever seen.
Never heard of Athene then I guess?
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