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Why single rail is NOT better than multi rail - Page 16  

post #151 of 172
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzin92 View Post
Im sure i read an article a while back of you telling people that single rail and multi rail powersupplys are the same, neither are better. now your telling us that single rail powersupplys are crap....
That was to dispel the myth that there's some major difference in design between single rail and multi rail PSUs. I also thought that taking a moderate stance would be the best way to dispel the myth; but it persists. So now I'm taking a more radical stance, because the information will be more widely disseminated. And after it's been argued and talked about, the end result will be people will get the same message as the other article, only it will have reached ten times as many people.
post #152 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
Hannedog, you're wrong about OCP, plain and simple. I don't know where you got the ideas you have, because I've never seen anyone with quite the belief set you do in regards to this. I honestly don't know where to start breaking down your misconceptions because I don't know where their root lies. Perhaps you debated someone over this years back and he either didn't understand multi rail OCP or argued it poorly. I don't know. Fact of the matter is, you're spouting the type of FUD that grew in the wake of PC Power & Cooling's "myth" page.


The fact of the matter is that PC Power & Cooling's FUD about how single rail is so much better/more reliable/safer/more stable took extremely deep roots into the collective knowledge base of the tech world, and everyone believed single rail was better and safer. That's been the "common sense" viewpoint for going on five years now, with perhaps 2-5% of the community disagreeing.

Articles like this are the dynamite to blow out those roots. Maybe there will be some collateral damage, but the myth will be gone. And who knows, maybe in five years the idea of "single rail bad" will be so deeply ingrained that someone else has to make an article countering mine. Who knows? The difference is that PC P&C made their articles to sell a product, I'm making my articles to educate people.



Anyway, single rail power supplies have no inherent advantages over a multi-rail PSU, unless the multi-rail PSU was designed by someone who didn't know what the hell they were doing.

How am I wrong about OCP? I just completely agreed with you on the subject. It's just that I was saying the subject was irrelevant.

You're just wrong about what you think people's "perceptions" are. It has NEVER been the "common sense" perspective that single rail is "safer" than multi-rail; it practically goes against the defintition of common sense.

"Anyway, single rail power supplies have no inherent advantages over a multi-rail PSU" -- this is you, in a box, that fails to see the real world, and the concept of "practicality". "Inherent" advantages? Irrelevant. What people want are real advantages.

People don't get PSUs for free. They pay for them. And they want to maximize their bang for their buck. The fact of the matter is, depending on where you put your value in "safety", to get the same performance out of multi-rail that you get out of single-rail, you will pay more, and thus, multi-rail, in general, is not seen as maximizing that "bang" for the dollar.
Edited by hannedog - 2/19/11 at 9:58am
post #153 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
With only 4 rails at 20A a piece, with a high-end SLI setup, you can certainly find a way to make things "work", but, it's going to be messy, and you're going to have to sacrifice cable management inside your case, because, there will not be many "options" that work with what connectors need to go where. Plus, with compoenent degredation over time, I would not be confident in overclocking such a rig utilizing this psu once the psu gets older than 3 years.
How will it be messy?

And one of those units is running an 8800GTX Setup just fine right now. It has been doing so for over 2 years.

You've got suspicions and fallacies in your mind that hold no proof.
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post #154 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
How will it be messy?

And one of those units is running an 8800GTX Setup just fine right now. It has been doing so for over 2 years.

You've got suspicions and fallacies in your mind that hold no proof.
Depending on the case you have, cable management is going to be messy. It's not a suspicion; it's common sense. Also, is that an 8800 GTX SLI setup, or just a single GTX? Big difference there.

If you wanted to do SLI, With only four rails, there's a limit on the available combinations of power connectors you use. Which means, certain cables are going to have to go in certain places, even if they aren't the most optimal cable for the spot, given the length of the cord, the number of connectors on a cord, etc. Depending on your case, it's just messy.

With single rail, you don't have to worry -- whatever connector is available, can be used, and this will help cable management (which ultimately helps temps) much more.

Keep in mind, I don't own that PSU, so I don't know how long the cables are. But cable length is a double-edged sword; the more length you have, the more routing/management you need to do. The less length, the more likely a certain connector can't reach a certain component.

And it's a fact that the output power decreases over time. Give an OC'd 8800 GTX on one of those 20 A rails three years, and things might get a little stressfull for that rail.
Edited by hannedog - 2/19/11 at 10:07am
post #155 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
Depending on the case you have, cable management is going to be messy. It's not a suspicion; it's common sense. Also, is that an 8800 GTX SLI setup, or just a single GTX? Big difference there.

If you wanted to do SLI, With only four rails, there's a limit on the available combinations of power connectors you use. Which means, certain cables are going to have to go in certain places, even if they aren't the most optimal cable for the spot, given the length of the cord, the number of connectors on a cord, etc. Depending on your case, it's just messy.

With single rail, you don't have to worry -- whatever connector is available, can be used, and this will help cable management (which ultimately helps temps) much more.

Keep in mind, I don't own that PSU, so I don't know how long the cables are. But cable lenght is a double-edged sword; the more length you have, the more routing/management you need to do. The less length, the more likely a certain connector can't reach a certain component.

And it's a fact that the output power decreases over time. Give an OC'd 8800 GTX on one of those 20 A rails three years, and things might get a little stressfull for that rail.
What?

480 SLI was running fine on my multi-rail PSU. The number of PCIe power connectors on a single-rail and multi-rail CPU are the same.

Corsair TX-750 (single rail) has 4 PCIe connectors. Antec TPN-750W (multiple rails) has 4 PCIe connectors. Cable length was basically the same.
post #156 of 172
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
And it's a fact that the output power decreases over time. Give an OC'd 8800 GTX on one of those 20 A rails three years, and things might get a little stressfull for that rail.
I'll let Tator answer the rest of your post, but this is a sign that you legitimately have no idea what you're on about.

The OCP setpoints don't decrease over time. It's an IC and some resistors. Those don't degrade, the values don't change on their own just because they get old.

Derating (which is another myth; derating takes a decade at least to become significant), if it occurred significantly, would affect the ability of the whole power supply. So a 40A Schottky might only be able to provide 35A.

That still doesn't affect the OCP rails in any way.
post #157 of 172
Phaedrus2129, where would one go about finding if our PSU has OCP? Hopefully mine has. It's the original PCP&C Silencer I believe before the OCZ takeover. And when we buy future PSUs are OCP an advertised feature or do we have to find obscure spec sheet to find out that info?

Thanks
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post #158 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus2129 View Post
Derating (which is another myth; derating takes a decade at least to become significant),
Now that's an interesting point, one I haven't heard before; although, at this point, all I have is "your word" that it is the case. So I'm not quite sure as to how or why you can claim this at this point.

I have never claimed to "know" what I am talking about. I'm no expert, never said I was. I'm just good with common sense, and can point out BS when I see it.
post #159 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
Depending on the case you have, cable management is going to be messy. It's not a suspicion; it's common sense. Also, is that an 8800 GTX SLI setup, or just a single GTX? Big difference there.
SLi setup. It was running in a full tower case (Gigabyte Sumo) and had no problem with the cables reaching. Cables have nothing to do with the amount of rails a unit has.
Short cables are going to be short whether it's a single or multiple 12v rails.
That computer now runs in an Antec DarkFleet 85. It has no problems with the cables reaching.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
If you wanted to do SLI, With only four rails, there's a limit on the available combinations of power connectors you use. Which means, certain cables are going to have to go in certain places, even if they aren't the most optimal cable for the spot, given the length of the cord, the number of connectors on a cord, etc. Depending on your case, it's just messy.
No there is not. There is no limit to the amount of cables you can have.
12 x 20A = 240w which is more than enough for 2 PCIe 6 pin connectors. Which most GPU's use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
With single rail, you don't have to worry -- whatever connector is available, can be used, and this will help cable management (which ultimately helps temps) much more.
Getting a case that can properly manage cables would be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
And it's a fact that the output power decreases over time. Give an OC'd 8800 GTX on one of those 20 A rails three years, and things might get a little stressfull for that rail.
Most people replace a unit after 3 years.
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post #160 of 172
why people get so affraid..

like i sayed before

It is so that with a high power psu on a single rail you can just overload a component alot because it can diliver like 100A on 1 rail.

Thats just overload though and is dependent on the component you have hooked it up to, its the component that ask the Amps and the PSU delivers.

If that component is faulty and ask huge Amps like 90A but your PSU is 100A then it will just feed it since its a single rail and up for that task. the component will get hot and catch fire, not the fault of the PSU

so thats not the PSU fault but the fault of that component.

When you have a short circuit you will draw ALOT more then 100Amps and the PSU will shut off inmediatly. a short circuit is like running 12V on a resistance less then 0,1 ohm or so [most times even lower like 0,01 ohm] 12V x 0,01 ohm is 1200 amps. trust me any proper PSU will shut down very fast with that. otherwise the PSU itself will burn up really quikly.

in the case what OP showed i bet its the board that was faulty and asking something like 80A, resulting in a PSU that will just feed it and a board catching fire.
Again not the fault of the psu but of the board.

Single rail can only be a bit worse in cases like this when the other components are faulty. it rarely has to do something with the PSU.

A high powered multi-rail PSU would have giving the same problem. 35A per rail can still set things on fire if drawn to 1 component.
so please dont think this cant happen with multi-rail because it can.
you might only be a little safer if you have a low power multi rail psu. or on the other hand a really really high powered expensive multi-rail
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