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Why single rail is NOT better than multi rail - Page 17  

post #161 of 172
It is his fault for using a motherboard with crappy power phase units and an Ultra power supply.

Although you do make a good point.
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post #162 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
No there is not. There is no limit to the amount of cables you can have.
Yes, there is. You're limited by the number/length of cables that the PSU manufacturer makes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
Getting a case that can properly manage cables would be better.
There's a lot of things that would be better. Why don't we get a modular 10 rail 2000w psu that has four rails at 30 A and the rest at 25? Or how about we get a liquid cooled "tank" case.

Your missing my point. At the end of the day, this is about average Joe, who has a budget, and is on newegg, and is looking for components that meet that budget while sill getting performance. That is why, at the end of the day, single rail is more popular than multi rail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
Most people replace a unit after 3 years.
Depends on who "people" are. Enthusiasts, sure. But even they like the "warm fuzzy" feeling of knowing they're not on a schedule with their setup, that they have "all" that they'll need for the long term.
post #163 of 172
I prefer single rail because I can just plug all my components into the PSU and not have to worry about the power distribution on each rail, if one rail is being overly taxed compared to another rail, etc. I used to have the multi rail BFG EX-1200 and it was a pain, it would hiss and hum when I put too much on the 12v1, and then when I redistributed the components to 12v2 and 12v3 it would subside. It was just too annoying to deal with, I prefer the single rail AX850. I'll take the chance of OCP failure, probably a higher chance of winning the lottery, if you use quality components in other parts of your build.
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post #164 of 172
Interesting read, thanks.

Does the Seasonic X650 have 12V OCP?
post #165 of 172
guys go read, dont assume !

give me a a faulty component like that board and ill make a multi-rail set it on fire to
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post #166 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mygaffer View Post
It is his fault for using a motherboard with crappy power phase units and an Ultra power supply.

Although you do make a good point.
The EVGA board is crappy?

For that matter, you don't even know what a power phase is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
Yes, there is. You're limited by the number/length of cables that the PSU manufacturer makes.
But not by the PSU design. Which you implied.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
Your missing my point. At the end of the day, this is about average Joe, who has a budget, and is on newegg, and is looking for components that meet that budget while sill getting performance. That is why, at the end of the day, single rail is more popular than multi rail.
No, single rail designs are more popular because of FUD spread by PC Power & cooling.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
Depends on who "people" are. Enthusiasts, sure. But even they like the "warm fuzzy" feeling of knowing they're not on a schedule with their setup, that they have "all" that they'll need for the long term.
Average consumers will; though most people that get a PSU get a unit much larger than what they really need.
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post #167 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
But not by the PSU design. Which you implied.
Hey now, you think you know what I implied? I think you're way off. All of my ranting has been on the basis of "practicality" and on common sense. I could care less what the "design" is. At the end of the day, I get specific PSU X from manufacturer Y, and I pay Z dollars for it. Those are the only three variables that matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
No, single rail designs are more popular because of FUD spread by PC Power & cooling.
*sigh* you can believe that. One thing you can learn about the masses if you study them, is that although the mob is terrible at making snap judgements, hardly ever is the mob wrong when it comes to judgements that have been made over a long period of time. Over time, people get it "right."

I've heard all this banter from the multi-rail people before, for many years. The truth, as they say, has been "out there" for a long time. The fact of the matter is, the market still chooses single rail. If you want to be naive and say that's all due to some incredible marketing by some company, be my guest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tator Tot View Post
Average consumers will; though most people that get a PSU get a unit much larger than what they really need.
Most people in the end don't really "know" if what they got was "more" than they needed. First of all, it dosn't hurt to have a higher rated psu than what you might "need." It's not like you're going to be using all the rated power all the time. Secondly, there's matters of power efficiency and derating (which the TC seems to think is a myth).

If I spend $20 more on a PSU that has a higher power rating but will be on average 5-10% more efficient at the power drawn from it than the one that costs $20 less (but was still "enough" in terms of power needs in my system), over the long term, would spending that extra $20 cause me to end up with something more than what I really "needed"?
post #168 of 172
This discussion is going no where.

Your arguments are not based on facts but assumptions.
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post #169 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capwn View Post
Guess my single rail Corsair is trash then huh?
Just because of this?
No not really. My TX950w with a 78a single rail shut down instantly when a GTX470 of mine died. Only a tiny puff of smoke and it was off.
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post #170 of 172
I'm surprised no one decided to argue with this. Challenge accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannedog View Post
I haven't gone through this entire thread, so, although I've seen some dissent on the original TC's argument, it's not very much, so, I'm not sure how redudant I am being here.

It's not so much that the TC is wrong, as he is irrelevant. And I detect a lot of bias. He’s touting facts that everyone is already aware of as if they are not aware of it.

Of course multi-rail psus are “safer” than single rail... everyone has always known this. How much safer? Are you looking at a 0.001% chance of a fire vs a 0.0001% chance? Who really cares? Either way, multi-rail is not “perfect”, and depending on the cause of the failure (which, more likely, would come from an external source such as a lightning strike), nothing can completely prevent a psu from starting on fire.

The fact of the matter is his discussion is leaving out the important piece of the puzzle as to why many choose single rail over multi-rail. It has nothing to do with safety, nothing to do with “cleaner” or “better” power. It has to do with the fact, that, in the real world, on average, when you see a power supply at Newegg, if it’s multi-rail, none of the 12v rails provide much amperage (A) on either of the rails. Most often, the best multi-rail psus you see have 19 A or so on each rail. But more often there is something like 19A on one rail and 14A on the other rail. This pretty much makes SLI an impossibility – and this is precisely why my previous Ultra, multi-rail psu, started failing and making a high-pitched whine sound after a couple of months. There was literally way too much stress on that second rail.
Whoa, hold up. Most all of the multi-rail PSU's worth buying are between 20A and 25A on the +12V rails, often more if there are only two rails. Anything below that is a rarity...I don't think I've ever seen a multi-rail PSU worth buying with less than 18A on any rail.

Quote:
Besides the fact that when you have the rails split up the amperage like that, you have to deal with the real-world physical constraints of how long or how many each of the cables are on each rail. I remember on my Ultra I couldn’t equally split everything up along the 12V rails because one of the rails didn’t have a connector long enough to reach my DVD player.
That's a minor inconvenience, but extension cables are cheap...and why couldn't you just move the drive to a lower alot?

Quote:
The guy then uses an often-unrealistic scenario to try and make it seem like there’s no practical advantage of single rail over multi-rail. Yes, if you have a 1600w psu, it would probably be better to have a multi-rail one. Duh. Each rail is probably going to be at least 40 A on it’s own, which will be just enough for dedicating a rail to each gpu. But, unless you start seeing multi-rail psus that have 40A on each rail (which you won’t until you get into 1600W psus lol), then, for gaming, multi-rail is just a pain in the ass. Personally, I’d love to have a multi-rail psu with 40a on each rail. Personally, I wouldn’t want to spend $300 to own that, however.
"just" enough? 40A dedicated to the PCIe going into a gpu would give a maximum power draw of 555 watts for the one card. Specs don't allow for any card to go over 300W stock. So, taking overclocking into account, anything over about 25A is completely useless unless you're powering two GPU's with one rail.

Quote:
On the flip side, the more amperage you put onto a single rail, the more unsafe it (or at least, the more catastrophic the potential) becomes. This is also common sense and is obvious, and pretty much everyone already knew this. My psu has 58 A on its single rail. I have had a mindset that 60 A or so is sort of the “limit” on what would be considered “safe” in the event of a failure. If you start packing any more Amps on that rail, well, then, yes, things may become unreasonably safe (how did I come up with this? It's not scientific. But then again, fire failures aren't going to happen with scientific precision either). And what’s more, if you have more than 60A on a single rail, you’re getting to the point where you can start splitting those Amps up onto different rails.

What’s better, one rail at 40 Amps, or two rails at 20? Obviously, the first choice.
What’s better, one rail at 60 Amps, or two rails at 30? The situation is less clear here, although, if you want to do 2 5980s in crossfire, probably the first choice.
What’s better, one rail at 80 Amps, or two rails at 40? Now, obviously, it’s the second choice. There’s simply no need for 80 amps on a single rail. There are no gpus with a single power connector that would require that much power ever.

But again, this has always been the logic as to why single rail is better than multi-rail, because most people buy psus less than 750 W. Although, this guy is trying to make it sound like single rail was better for other (non-existent) reasons, such as “better” overclocking or something. The bottom line is, most gamers do not have a need for 1600 W power supplies (as most do not do 4-way SLI), and so, in the real world, for most gamers, given the nature of amperage allocation, single-rail psu wins over multi-rail.
I don't see him implying that anywhere in the post...?

And I'm perfectly fine with my four +12V rails and 550W, thank you. I'm one of those you refer to with "most gamers". Can you show me a real-world situation where a single +12V would be better than my four at 20A each?
Edited by Drenlin - 2/19/11 at 10:56am
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