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[Mushkin/OCC] Mushkin Not Moving to 25nm - Page 4

post #31 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reflux View Post
You have 2 470's.

Argument deemed invalid.

/offtopic
post #32 of 65
For those of you wondering why a die shrink is hurting performance, and to all those with similar sentiments to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bojinglebells View Post
lol @ brand loyalty, this is exactly what Mushkin is hoping for.

Me, I will be buying whatever I deem is the best value for my money after doing some research. It may or may not be Mushkin.
This is not just some PR to explain a failure to stay on the cutting edge. This is not a processor packed with transistors, this is flash memory. The principles are different. Read: http://www.anandtech.com/show/4159/o...t-sf2500-ssd/2

I'll quote the important part:
Quote:
When we transitioned to 34nm, the NAND makers forgot to mention one key fact. MLC NAND no longer lasts 10,000 cycles at 34nm - the number is now down to 5,000 program/erase cycles. The smaller you make these NAND structures, the harder it is to maintain their integrity over thousands of program/erase cycles. While I haven't seen datasheets for the new 25nm IMFT NAND, I've heard the consumer SSD grade stuff is expected to last somewhere between 3000 - 5000 cycles. This sounds like a very big problem.
Now, he has a point that he makes later on why 3000 cycles is still quite a bit, probably more than most of us will use, but he's assuming you aren't filling your SSD up, or doing a lot of (un)installs and rewrites to the drive. Considering the cost of SSD's, I'd wager there are quite a few people (myself included) using way more than 50% of their drives capacity, rendering a serious flaw in his math.

Aside from cost cutting and PR of "Stealing your nanometer to make things more fasterer/betterer" there's little advantage of a smaller die as is. This isn't a result of immature manufacturing processes as we're used to (a la Fermi/TSMC @ 40nm), this is a result of the nature of NAND flash cells and their inherit charastic to degrade more quickly as they're made smaller.

I commend Mushkin for making this decision, but feel they should have better explained the nature of die shrinks in relation to their specific impact on reliability/performance. I can certainly see why people would take this as being nothing but a PR move, as opposed to a shining example of a commitment to excellence as opposed to a commitment to "OMG LOOK NEW AND SHINY"
Edited by TheSprunk - 2/20/11 at 10:57pm
    
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post #33 of 65
I love my Mushkin SSD. It's the single best performance upgrade I have ever done.
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post #34 of 65
Corsair only lost 5MB/s with the drop to 25nm. OCZ is now replacing the first 25nm drives with an "updated" version for free. 32nm chips won't even be available to package and sell anymore very shortly to begin with. Can't sell what doesn't exist.
Edited by PoopaScoopa - 2/22/11 at 11:08am
post #35 of 65
Quote:

Muskins 34nm Promise?

Postby naturecannon » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:17 am

Curious!!

With the word of 34nm production coming to an end and very soon, how does Muskin plan on upholding the 34nm promise?
Answer:


Quote:
Postby MushkinSean » Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:51 am
Hi,

To put it in a nutshell, we have secured a very good supply of 34nm ICs.

At some point in the future we will be offering 25nm SSDs, however any SSD that we release with 25nm ICs will have a different part number(SKU) and will be labeled with appropriate specs.
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post #36 of 65
It seems odd to me that everyone would stop producing 34nm NAND when there is still a high demand for it. Why move to producing something that does not perform as well? I am assuming that the 25nm has lower production costs, but even still... seems that a company could just charge a premium for 34nm to keep production alive and satisfy demand.

Get your Mushkin drives while you can though - they keep going out of stock on newegg (and going up in price)!
post #37 of 65
Dear Mushkin:
Thank you for not hopping aboard the band wagon of death.
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post #38 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by mechtech View Post
25nm is slower as well. Cheaper to produce, but lower capacity, performance, and longevity. It's strange to see a die shrink bring less performance, I wonder if this is a problem with the flash architecture or if the Intel 25nm process is generally crappy. Some people say that this is because less ships == the same capacity, meaning less channels and lower performance even though per ship performance is higher, but this hasn't been proven.

http://www.overclockers.com/oczs-25n...rmance-issues/
These are not CPUs...they do not work the same way. Process shrinking actually has a negative impact on performance and longevity. The only reason why Intel decided to go to 25nm is because of profit margin on SSD drives.
Edited by dejanh - 2/25/11 at 9:48am
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post #39 of 65
If I were Mushkin I'd market the 25nm as value products and keep my current line and market them as the tougher solution. As long as the customer is made aware that the 25nm drives have reduced life cycle, it seems fine.

Hence, my respect for OCZ has dropped considerably from their performance regarding the issue.
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post #40 of 65
This is why I'm waiting for the 120GB Callisto Deluxe to come in stock at the egg
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