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[PS3Crunch] Geohot is Asking for Your Donation - Page 13

post #121 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin100 View Post
Nope.
Take a game for example, you are buying the rights to use the game software, you don't OWN the game. You (may) own a physical copy and the rights to play the game sure, but if you break the terms of agreement they have the right to suspend your account and stop you using their game.

It's simple. If you don't agree to the terms of use for the product you are buying then DON'T buy it. You can't agree with a seller on how you will use their product and then when you buy/own it you say well I was just saying that so you would give it to me, now I have it you can go screw yourself I am doing what I want with my product.
Not very moral if you ask me.
Except that in this case it is the seller who is immoral since he manipulated the contract and knows how to get away with it since buyer awareness is something they fear
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post #122 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by petran79 View Post
Except that in this case it is the seller who is immoral since he manipulated the contract and knows how to get away with it since buyer awareness is something they fear
Except you're wrong and twisting the truth of the matter to suit your viewpoint.

Good job!
post #123 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by XNine View Post
Actually, he provided a means to exploit the security hole. You're telling me if there was a vulnerability to Windows that was posted on the internet that breached the security of the OS that Microsoft wouldn't sue? Get real. They've sued TONS of people for exploiting Windows and continue to do so.

Last time I checked his computer and way to provide this means was taken before the actual CFW was released. He never released to the public the firmware or software to sign packages. That was all developed after sony poked at him a bit. His part was telling people how to find the keys, which isn't much.

And yes, I'm telling you that if I found a security flaw in Windows and posted it that they can't sue. As long as I don't release software/code that provides the means to exploit that software. That is 100% legal, however this isn't even what they are arguing about.

This is a little bit more than that, they are arguing that tampering with the firmware to "find" this exploit was illegal. Basically you can't look at the firmware, alter it (on your own device), then run that altered firmware if it removes the ability to check for copyright material. [edit] That's not even what the argument is about, it's just about "tampering" with the firmware. That is what they are arguing about, whether or not you can legally change/modify the firmware at all. This is the real case, nothing is about how the exploit allowed piracy. People need to stop talking about that side of the case, cause that side doesn't exist.

He stated that he wasn't running software that circumvented copyright material. All he wanted was to alter the boot process to gain hardware access. NOTHING he did was even tied to the CFWs or any of the other firmware products released. In fact he didn't release any code or binary, his team released the keys (which I don't even think that's true, I think people who know the team released the keys).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin100 View Post
Nope.
Take a game for example, you are buying the rights to use the game software, you don't OWN the game. You (may) own a physical copy and the rights to play the game sure, but if you break the terms of agreement they have the right to suspend your account and stop you using their game.

It's simple. If you don't agree to the terms of use for the product you are buying then DON'T buy it. You can't agree with a seller on how you will use their product and then when you buy/own it you say well I was just saying that so you would give it to me, now I have it you can go screw yourself I am doing what I want with my product.
Not very moral if you ask me.
Except by that logic we couldn't mod games, ever. In fact, that makes "cracks" illegal. That in itself isn't true, as we've justified them. Really you can't compare this to games, they are different than Consoles.

[edit] Oh, and actually that's wrong on another note. As long as you don't alter the content in such a way as to remove security checks so that the game registers correctly (one license per key or whatever, you know what I mean by that) it's fine. Your logic also nulls trainers, code injection, I could make the list longer. Basically if it doesn't invalidate DCMA it's fine, you can do whatever the crap you want to that game code.

[edit3?] Oh, and by the "thou can't edit firmware" logic; Anyone who has DD-WRT should remove it. The device wasn't created or "authorized" to run a bootloader/firmware that didn't come with it. It's in the EULA, so now you all have illegal routers. That goes for everything that deals with that situation. That's the type of crap you might end up dealing with if sony wins. =)
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/20/11 at 10:02pm
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post #124 of 240
well, if it wasn't by him, i couldnt use T-mobile iphone..... as long as you dont steal anybody's property; to me, Jailbreaking is legal.......... it all comes back to people's moral... im just sayin'.....

To Sony : Life is tough.
Edited by yukiz - 2/20/11 at 10:16pm
    
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post #125 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin100 View Post
Nope.
Take a game for example, you are buying the rights to use the game software, you don't OWN the game. You (may) own a physical copy and the rights to play the game sure, but if you break the terms of agreement they have the right to suspend your account and stop you using their game.

It's simple. If you don't agree to the terms of use for the product you are buying then DON'T buy it. You can't agree with a seller on how you will use their product and then when you buy/own it you say well I was just saying that so you would give it to me, now I have it you can go screw yourself I am doing what I want with my product.
Not very moral if you ask me.
there is a slight problem with that though. eula is not valid if you are forced to purchase the product first.

When you buy something, if they want to restrict what you do with it, it must be written and displayed prior to purchase.
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post #126 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhati View Post
there is a slight problem with that though. eula is not valid if you are forced to purchase the product first.

When you buy something, if they want to restrict what you do with it, it must be written and displayed prior to purchase.
Dang, lol I never thought to make it that simple. =P Basically it still comes down to DCMA then.
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post #127 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcde7ago View Post
Actually, it's because Hotz is the one (along with the fail0verflow team, whom are also getting sued) that made it possible for those people to jailbreak their PS3's in the first place.

It wouldn't be cost-effective for Sony to go after the thousands of people who have jailbroken their PS3s, mainly because they really have no grounds with which to charge any of them.

Which is where Hotz comes in, who Sony is trying to make an example out of.

Hotz did nothing wrong. He didn't violate infringement laws, he didn't commit piracy, nothing. All he did was release the relevant info for others to jailbreak their own PS3s. Just like Sony is entitled to ban people from PSN, so are people entitled to jailbreak their PS3s that they paid for. That is precisely what Sony is attempting to prevent; they want to exert, through this lawsuit, that people CAN'T do what they want to the physical products that they purchased. You seem to have trouble grasping this concept.
Sony is trying to make an example out of him - yes. This is true.

BUT: Hotz did violate infringement laws and this lawsuit has nothing to do with piracy.

You said it yourself," All he did was release the relevant info for others to jailbreak their own PS3s."

In that relevant info is the improper use of Sony's signature keys of which are the intellectual, copyrighted, and probably patented software of Sony Computer Entertainment and therefore is illegal. Not only did he mess with this software without Sony's permission, he also distributed it which is a double no-no.
I haven't read all the illegal documents because I find most legal documents to be way too lengthy and stupidly repetitive especially when you're trying to pinpoint reasons. I'm sure there is more stuff Sony has him nailed for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylit View Post
Maybe I don't have the complete and full story.

May you please enlighten me and post external links?
GeoHot kept saying and released videos of him having access to the restricted lv2 developer access using OtherOS with Linux. I'm sure you can find it all on his blog still. He was bragging about how he could make a CFW for the XMB out of it, but Sony hit the red button before GeoHot could blink an eye. It wasn't a coincidence that Sony decided to remove OtherOS shortly after GeoHot revealed all this information lol.
Then, GeoHot was telling people "nono - don't update, I'll release a CFW". Never happened. -.-

Quote:
Originally Posted by rxsocal View Post
Unless you wrote that, I'm not gonna read your wall of BS. I've heard of the US airforce buying 2000+ ps3 but this has NOTHING to do with sony suing george hotz.
Yeah I've NEVER heard any of that before outside of this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Not to mention what Hotz did could have been done by ANYONE. I mean the logic behind "He exploited the OS and opened up a major security hole." goes like this:

He first copied/decrypted the firmware. Re-write the firmware so that R wasn't a random number. Then he would have had to upload it to EVERY ps3 in existence that had 3.55 firmware or below (literally every PS3). THEN tell everybody that the firmware had a glitch in it where R wasn't random....

The thinking behind that is flawed in so many ways that I can't even begin to understand why you are even posting about this topic. You obviously would have a ways to go in understanding this. The keys weren't leaked entirely by him, that's why they want the whole team. Apparently there were a few more fellows that had the keys already found/decrypted and were the most likely suspects to the leaked keys. What he did do was tell everyone how to get those keys, which is what sony was angry about.
I wrote a big response arguing alot of this but after reading it like a dozen times over I believe you're saying the opposite of what I originally thought. IDK - I was just confused by the post Think I still am but w/e lol



Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
Last time I checked his computer and way to provide this means was taken before the actual CFW was released. He never released to the public the firmware or software to sign packages. That was all developed after sony poked at him a bit. His part was telling people how to find the keys, which isn't much.
Not from what I recall.
I could be wrong, and Im in no mood to start looking up dates, but if memory serves - he released the CFW almost an entire week before Sony even started annoying him and he announced it.

I remember Karakatos or w/e his handle was released a CFW and the following day or two - GeoHot released his own that was better. I had first had Kara's CFW and then I had to upgrade to GeoHot's. Only after that a few days later did Sony throw papers at him and then take his computers.
Where you get that they took his computer away before the CFW was released I don't know, unless I'm mistaken.

And also: him telling everyone how to find the keys IS a big deal. "It isn't much" is not true at all. In fact, that's the whole basis of why Sony is going after the whole overfl0w team or w/e they're called.

Quote:
And yes, I'm telling you that if I found a security flaw in Windows and posted it that they can't sue. As long as I don't release software/code that provides the means to exploit that software. That is 100% legal, however this isn't even what they are arguing about.

This is a little bit more than that, they are arguing that tampering with the firmware to "find" this exploit was illegal. Basically you can't look at the firmware, alter it (on your own device), then run that altered firmware if it removes the ability to check for copyright material. [edit] That's not even what the argument is about, it's just about "tampering" with the firmware. That is what they are arguing about, whether or not you can legally change/modify the firmware at all. This is the real case, nothing is about how the exploit allowed piracy. People need to stop talking about that side of the case, cause that side doesn't exist.

He stated that he wasn't running software that circumvented copyright material. All he wanted was to alter the boot process to gain hardware access. NOTHING he did was even tied to the CFWs or any of the other firmware products released. In fact he didn't release any code or binary, his team released the keys (which I don't even think that's true, I think people who know the team released the keys).
Woah Woah Woah

EVERYTHING he did was tied to CFWs. He released one, and even hosted it on his own website for people to download for a short period of time. He directly distributed software that wasn't his that he edited using additional software (Sony's keys) that again wasn't his. That's double whammy right there.

Quote:
Except by that logic we couldn't mod games, ever. In fact, that makes "cracks" illegal. That in itself isn't true, as we've justified them. Really you can't compare this to games, they are different than Consoles.

[edit] Oh, and actually that's wrong on another note. As long as you don't alter the content in such a way as to remove security checks so that the game registers correctly (one license per key or whatever, you know what I mean by that) it's fine. Your logic also nulls trainers, code injection, I could make the list longer. Basically if it doesn't invalidate DCMA it's fine, you can do whatever the crap you want to that game code.

[edit3?] Oh, and by the "thou can't edit firmware" logic; Anyone who has DD-WRT should remove it. The device wasn't created or "authorized" to run a bootloader/firmware that didn't come with it. It's in the EULA, so now you all have illegal routers. That goes for everything that deals with that situation. That's the type of crap you might end up dealing with if sony wins. =)
IIt isn't just editing with firmware though. You're missing a super critical point and that's the main point that Sony is trying desperately to nail Geo on. And they WILL succeed. If they couldn't, they wouldn't have gotten this far.

The super critical point is that all of this CFW business was because of Sony's keys. Those keys are Sony's intellectual property, copyrighted, and probably trademarked.
This is NOT the case of jailbreaking with an iPhone where security checks are removed so that unsigned code can be ran (from my understanding of it anyway, pretty sure that's a really stupid simplified version of the process lol).
The CFW, or "jailbreak" as people insist on calling it now, is done by using Sony's own property. In other words, you're tricking the PS3 into thinking that you are Sony. You are it's creator. It will do whatever you tell it to do without question. You are in possession of the signed signature keys of SCE and using them wrongfully - therefore are breaking several laws in and of itself. Not to mention, Geohot was distributing this to top it all off. So was Karakotas or w/e so it's not like GeoHot is the only one.
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post #128 of 240
G opened the door to piracy on the PS3. I don't support him.
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post #129 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmegaNemesis28 View Post
Not from what I recall.
I could be wrong, and Im in no mood to start looking up dates, but if memory serves - he released the CFW almost an entire week before Sony even started annoying him and he announced it.

I remember Karakatos or w/e his handle was released a CFW and the following day or two - GeoHot released his own that was better. I had first had Kara's CFW and then I had to upgrade to GeoHot's. Only after that a few days later did Sony throw papers at him and then take his computers.
Where you get that they took his computer away before the CFW was released I don't know, unless I'm mistaken.

And also: him telling everyone how to find the keys IS a big deal. "It isn't much" is not true at all. In fact, that's the whole basis of why Sony is going after the whole overfl0w team or w/e they're called.



Woah Woah Woah

EVERYTHING he did was tied to CFWs. He released one, and even hosted it on his own website for people to download for a short period of time. He directly distributed software that wasn't his that he edited using additional software (Sony's keys) that again wasn't his. That's double whammy right there.



IIt isn't just editing with firmware though. You're missing a super critical point and that's the main point that Sony is trying desperately to nail Geo on. And they WILL succeed. If they couldn't, they wouldn't have gotten this far.

The super critical point is that all of this CFW business was because of Sony's keys. Those keys are Sony's intellectual property, copyrighted, and probably trademarked.
This is NOT the case of jailbreaking with an iPhone where security checks are removed so that unsigned code can be ran (from my understanding of it anyway, pretty sure that's a really stupid simplified version of the process lol).
The CFW, or "jailbreak" as people insist on calling it now, is done by using Sony's own property. In other words, you're tricking the PS3 into thinking that you are Sony. You are it's creator. It will do whatever you tell it to do without question. You are in possession of the signed signature keys of SCE and using them wrongfully - therefore are breaking several laws in and of itself. Not to mention, Geohot was distributing this to top it all off. So was Karakotas or w/e so it's not like GeoHot is the only one.
I wasn't sure on the dates if geo had released his own CFW. That might be true, in which case they could start a separate case for that (I believe [edit] No, I guess he's got 8 pending charges which would make sense. some were probably added on, probably not far apart either). However, the keys are moot as Sony should have just changed the R, oh wait they did! There is no way to downgrade 3.56 and no way to make a CFW from it because sony patched the hole.

From what I've gathered he didn't release anything until after they put the restraining order in. Or at least when they originally filed for it, then he put up mirrors (probably knowing they might take his software/stuff). However, I don't believe the original hack had any proprietary software used. I also believe his CFW was strictly 3.55, the others floating around were created after?

IMO I don't think his response to put it on public mirrors was appropriate but whatev. In that aspect somebody else would have found the keys and released the same software. I do think this whole case is basically Sony throwing a fit. They might get him on one of the 8 pending charges though, doubtfully the original charge.

[edit] IMO he should have put his effort to a loader instead of CFW/Keys. However I'm pretty sure somebody is going to figure out how to get a custom CFW to boot on a chip eventually, which is why I see this whole case pointless.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/21/11 at 1:03am
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post #130 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
that makes "cracks" illegal. That in itself isn't true, as we've justified them. Really you can't compare this to games, they are different than Consoles.

[edit] Oh, and actually that's wrong on another note. As long as you don't alter the content in such a way as to remove security checks so that the game registers correctly (one license per key or whatever, you know what I mean by that) it's fine. Your logic also nulls trainers, code injection, I could make the list longer. Basically if it doesn't invalidate DCMA it's fine, you can do whatever the crap you want to that game code.
Not sure if you know but cracks are against 99.9% of agreements in game licences. So no, you can't use them (or unofficial mods, or trainers) and if you do the company has a right to take the product off you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vhati View Post
there is a slight problem with that though. eula is not valid if you are forced to purchase the product first.

When you buy something, if they want to restrict what you do with it, it must be written and displayed prior to purchase.
Like a licence agreement when you install? Yeah, like every single bit of software you install. Who ever forces someone to buy a product? If you don't agree to the terms yu don't buy the product.

I read GeoHots list of achievements and I have to say, he is very intelligent and I have respect for his skill, but why not use it to work against the pirate industry?
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Mouse PadAudioAudio
SteelSeries QcK+ (XL) Epiphany Acoustics EHP-02 AMP + DAC Audio-Technica ATH-M50X 
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Chris-PC
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CPUMotherboardGraphicsRAM
Intel Core i7-920 Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD3R HIS R9 280X IceQ X2 Turbo OC 6GB DDR3 SuperTalent 
Hard DriveHard DriveHard DriveOptical Drive
Samsung 250GB EVO SSD (Internal) 2TB WD Black HDD (Internal) 4TB WD My Book HDD (External) LG 18X DVD-RW 
CoolingCoolingOSMonitor
Antec TruQuiet 140mm (X5) Antec TruQuiet 120mm (X2) Windows 10 Pro 64-bit 23" Samsung 2333HD 1080p 
KeyboardPowerCaseMouse
Saitek Eclipse II XFX Pro 650W Core Edition Corsair Carbide 300R Logitech MX518 
Mouse PadAudioAudio
SteelSeries QcK+ (XL) Epiphany Acoustics EHP-02 AMP + DAC Audio-Technica ATH-M50X 
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [PS3Crunch] Geohot is Asking for Your Donation