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[PS3Crunch] Geohot is Asking for Your Donation - Page 17

post #161 of 240
So...Julian Assange anybody?
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post #162 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gigalisk View Post
So...Julian Assange anybody?
Why bring him into this? He exploited Military Secrets including the names of covert agents. Something quite a bit more serious than a Sony PS3 firmware hack. I really don't see how you can connect him to Geohot, but, whatever.
post #163 of 240
^ +1. Skip out on the right to modify my PS3 to run Linux in exchange for a stable online experience? *Throws Linux out the window*

No one has any real valid use of Linux on a PS3. If you're such an adept Linux professional and have enough Linux-based work to absolutely need Linux, you're more than certainly able to afford a little budget build PC that performs above a PS3. Actually, put even better: If you're such a said Linux professional, you MUST have once had/still have a PC with Linux on it and have no necessity for Linux on a PS3.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/21/11 at 10:19am
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post #164 of 240
^This.

I didn't even find it of value on the BIG PS3.

Reason i brought up J-A is because he asked for the peoples help too. Nothing more.

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post #165 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
1. No, they do not. There is absolutely no demand from Intel that you cannot overclock your processor. The processor also does not have any encryption blocking the ability to overclock it. The entire PURPOSE of building a custom system is to customize it to optimize performance.
Intel can entirely claim that overclocking might produce instability, and hence, is illegal. Same with motherboard makers - and this is entirely evidenced by the fact that if you fly a processor by overclocking it, they will not cover it under warranty. What the law states is that it must do damage to the company - and if you overclock and fry a processor - it does no damage to Intel because you bought the product. Intel doesn't go out and lodge a lawsuit saying that you shouldn't have overclocked because it tarnishes their reputation, or that it might have caused some kind of crash that is a breach of security. Nor is anyone suing the engineers at Intel, because it is their inventions that enable most of the piracy that goes on in the first place.

[quote]2. No, they do not. The entire PURPOSE behind Windows is to encourage software development; it is shared source, which the PS3 software is not. Windows wouldn't be where it is now if it wasn't for the tremendous library of software that runs on it.[QUOTE]

Wrong - Windows is completely closed source, monolithic, and proprietary - but MS still doesn't sue people that choose to install non-MS software on their systems, and that might even resort to various unapproved hacks to run two or more OSes on a Windows system. In fact, if MS attempted this (and they have before) - it is called anti-trust and anti-competitive, no matter what they might put into an EULA. No contract can be enforced that breaks the law.

Quote:
3. Geo isn't being taken to court for pirating. He is being accused of reverse engineering close source software and bypassing its security encryption, which is both against the law and against their EULA.
It's only against the law if it does damage to Sony - of which this does not because 1. GeoHot did not sell this as a for-profit item, or an item that would detract from the sales of PS3's, and did not produce this to commit acts of fraud against Sony 2. bypassing security is not "against the law", only the act of piracy is, of which GeoHot did not do. 3. defective security systems is a liability against Sony, they produced a lemon, they have to repair the damage.

This is more of a problem on Sony's part, because it shows their cards, that they will fraudulently "update" someones system without fair warning that the update will remove functionality that was a feature of the contract to purchase in the first case. It would be like if MS issued an "update" for "security reasons" that would brick your Windows system if you were not using their approved Internet Explorer - or if they chose to issue a Service Pack that would remove USB Drive support because USB Drives are used for piracy - of they remove CD/DVD support because of "piracy".

Quote:
By your logic, if you had a flimsy door lock on your home I am within my rights to stick a false key and break into your home.
Wrong analogy - it is like suing to force all of the locksmiths out if business because they sell keys - keys that someone could purchase and use their own tools on in order to make a key that would break into my house. Or perhaps suing all of the wire manufacturers and copper mining companies because they enable the hotwiring of cars. Sony is pursuing the wrong person. They need to go after the pirates, and to lock down their network with actual security - not to go after a modder who simply unlocked a feature that the system already has.

Quote:
It would be impossible for Sony to recall every PS3 unit sold as you do not provide any information when you buy a PS3.
How does that justify the malicious prosecution of hobbyists and modders?

Quote:
4. That right there killed off your whole argument, I'm lollin over here. Correct: AMD, Intel, Microsoft, ENCOURAGE you to modify your systems and develop apps for Windows. Sony does NOT encourage you to modify their PS3; you actually agree not to in the EULA.
You actually agree not to alter or reverse engineer anything that any of these companies create. However, Intel and AMD don't bother because they know that they would loose, and find more profit in a business model where they make money selling products.

MS sues people all of the time - it's a long list. However, the law protects innovators, and guarantees an open market. MS attempted for years to preclude other browsers - they claimed that tight integration of IE with their OS was mandatory - and this ended up clobbering Netscape. But then, the courts found that MS was engaged in anti-competitive, trust-building, and broke that apart. Now you can run whatever browser you want. If your Firefox busts Windows - that's your problem, MS doesn't cover that under warranty - but they are not suing you for installing a Firefox add-on either.

I find it curious where you think MS "encourages" people to cop their code and perform all kinds of reverse engineering - because this has never been the case. MS won't even give up on their antiques, and would entirely prosecute anyone that tried to reverse engineer and sell for-profit some recompilation of DOS. Don't kid youself - what keeps MS out of garbage lawsuits like Sony is engaged in is because their lawyers are smart enough to know they don't have much of a case, and that the fallout from such a case would be the main source of damages to MS itself.

MS damaged itself many times. I think their whole IE thing was a debacle, because sure, for a few moments, IE was the king of the hill - but it really opened up people to alternatives, and now, IE is the thing that you use when you first crank a Windows system over, so you can download Firefox or Chrome or whatever. I think if someone created some giant hack and used it for piracy - MS might pursue that; but I have never heard of MS prosecuting a modder for dual booting a system, or running Windows in a virtualizer.

Quote:
Console unlocking ---> Piracy (leads to)
Console unlocking ---> Violates freedom (Sony's rights to protect their intellectual property as well as legitimate PS3 users' rights to enjoy their online games without the annoyance of cheaters)
So in other words:

Sony Invents The CD-R == Piracy == Sony Needing To Sue Themselves Because They Enabled Piracy.

Console Unlocking != Online Game Cheating

Rather:

Poor Network Security == Online Cheating
Security Patches != Security
Security Patches == Big Brotherism == Malicious Prosecution Of Hobbyists && Modders

This case == Fail For Sony, because people will just go buy an XBox 360, which is a superior machine with better games anyways, but without big brother suing you for noodling with somethine and blaming you for piracy.
post #166 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Intel can entirely claim that overclocking might produce instability, and hence, is illegal.
I only really want to quote one part of this.
How did you figure this one out?
Thanks for the laughs.

It's not illegal to void your warranty.
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post #167 of 240
I for one hope he rots in jail, not that he will of course.

I play fighting games online pretty much as the only thing to do on my PS3, the constant updates and other stuff that's going on in an attempt to remedy the situation.
post #168 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by __Pat__ View Post
You'd be surprised but most people would choose security and conformity over freedom. Otherwise no tyrant would have been able to rise to power.

Of course soon they realize that without their freedom, those tyrants will soon abuse them, and they won't have neither security nor freedom, and no means to fight back.

I hope Sony wins this just so people will see how it will backfire on those who supported them.
I can see that people are missing this point entirely. People are arguing and equating hacking to cheating whenever; although the latter wasn't possible before the former was introduced, the former was not introduced to bring the latter to fruition. If you're in a democratic government and you elect a leader who eventually reveals himself to be a dictator and runs the government - and the country - into the ground, does that mean that democracy is the culprit?

There's always been some form of cheating in online games, be it lag-switches or 'standbying' or whatever incredibly pointless tool someone used to get another Rampage in Halo 2 or 3 or Reach or any other competitive game. It has always been dealt with in some form of banning and restrictive access. There's no reason this is any different, except that you have a clearer entry point for the 'cheaters,' apparently.

Regardless how much people 'hate' George Hotz either for who he is or what he did, you don't want him to lose this case. I can promise you that. In this country, people take freedoms so liberally that they don't even realize it, so I guess they're more willing than others to throw one away. What they don't realize is that in doing so, they are paving the way for corporate giants to legally have the ability to force and exert their influence and ideals further into your life - which I don't care who you are, you should not want this.
post #169 of 240
Rofl at Evan... I give up, he's a lost a cause.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Intel can entirely claim that overclocking might produce instability, and hence, is illegal.
They legally CAN completely lock every CPU if they wanted to, but they don't. They don't ask you at all to agree to not overclock their chips.

Quote:
Wrong - Windows is completely closed source, monolithic, and proprietary - but MS still doesn't sue people that choose to install non-MS software on their systems, and that might even resort to various unapproved hacks to run two or more OSes on a Windows system. In fact, if MS attempted this (and they have before) - it is called anti-trust and anti-competitive, no matter what they might put into an EULA. No contract can be enforced that breaks the law.
Nah, you wrong. Windows is shared source, buddy. Not open source, not close source, it's sort of "in between." To repeat, YES, you ARE allowed to develop software for Windows and distribute it freely or commercially with approval from Microsoft. If it were closed source, how else would ATI/NVIDIA/Adobe/EVERY other software developer that exists be able to code for Windows in the first place? http://www.microsoft.com/resources/s...e/default.mspx

Quote:
It's only against the law if it does damage to Sony - of which this does not because 1. GeoHot did not sell this as a for-profit item, or an item that would detract from the sales of PS3's, and did not produce this to commit acts of fraud against Sony 2. bypassing security is not "against the law", only the act of piracy is, of which GeoHot did not do. 3. defective security systems is a liability against Sony, they produced a lemon, they have to repair the damage.
Bypassing the security is against the law on 2 accounts: 1: Geo modified close source software without Sony's authorization and 2: Geo violated the PS3's EULA which states that you may not bypass any sort of security encryption on the system.

Quote:
This is more of a problem on Sony's part, because it shows their cards, that they will fraudulently "update" someones system without fair warning that the update will remove functionality that was a feature of the contract to purchase in the first case. It would be like if MS issued an "update" for "security reasons" that would brick your Windows system if you were not using their approved Internet Explorer - or if they chose to issue a Service Pack that would remove USB Drive support because USB Drives are used for piracy - of they remove CD/DVD support because of "piracy".
Ok, this kid is an obvious troll. We have killed that argument 83 times now. Sony made everyone VERY WELL aware and days before the update that the OtherOS feature would be removed in the upcoming update. Everyone who installed the update did so at their own will as they could have declined the update. The OtherOS feature was not a "feature of the contract," it was never advertised, and on top of that, the contract also allows Sony to remove any features they wish, especially under the circumstance that it is a security hole.

Quote:
Wrong analogy - it is like suing to force all of the locksmiths out if business because they sell keys - keys that someone could purchase and use their own tools on in order to make a key that would break into my house. Or perhaps suing all of the wire manufacturers and copper mining companies because they enable the hotwiring of cars. Sony is pursuing the wrong person. They need to go after the pirates, and to lock down their network with actual security - not to go after a modder who simply unlocked a feature that the system already has.
Lol wait, wrong analogy, yet you create one that is so wonderfully out of the world of the topic at hand?

Quote:
How does that justify the malicious prosecution of hobbyists and modders?

You actually agree not to alter or reverse engineer anything that any of these companies create. However, Intel and AMD don't bother because they know that they would loose, and find more profit in a business model where they make money selling products.
No, AMD/Intel don't bother because the entire purpose of building your own system is to seek maximum performance. That, and you're not "reverse engineering" anything. You're tweaking settings that are already accessible. CPUs ARE UNLOCKED. The PS3 isn't. You continue to fail at seeing the difference between a LOCKED platform and one that is not. You are ALLOWED to overclock your CPU. If Intel and AMD locked every one of their CPUs, they are rightfully allowed to do so. They DON'T. Stop using the overclocking analogy, it's been binned several times already.

Quote:
I find it curious where you think MS "encourages" people to cop their code and perform all kinds of reverse engineering - because this has never been the case.
I ESPECIALLY find it curious where you think that developing software for Windows involves reverse engineering the entire operating system. It's SHARED SOURCE, you don't even need to reverse engineer anything. The source is HANDED to you. That is the entire difference between Windows and PS3. You're comparing two COMPLETELY different genres of software, closed source and shared source.

You're a horrible debater, and a skeptic. I've gone so far as ignoring you now, I'm tired of reading the same thing over and over from you in the same words.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/21/11 at 11:18am
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post #170 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
OK, so people are trying to create some kind of difference between Jailbreaking and Console Unlocking - fair enough.

So GeoHot simply unlocked the built in capabilities of the console, so I don't see the reason for this frivolous law suit. Lots of people alter and change firmware and firmware settings. Especially on OCN, where it is the norm. So what, Intel gets the right to sue anyone that changes their voltage settings, or alters memory settings, or whatever? And does MS get to sue you for using Chrome or Firefox, even though they can completely claim that such use does damages to them, because it causes them to loose market share for IE, and that the only way they can provide "security" is to tightly integrate the browser into the OS?

It's all ridiculous. Of GeoHot was actually committing acts of piracy, like cloning thousands of games and selling them for his own profit - that is one thing. But this, it's nothing more than unlocking what is already built in. And Sony's claim of "security" is bunk, because if their security is so weak that it can be cracked with a simple software tool in thirty seconds, by anyone, then they should be forced to recall and destroy all of the defective consoles because they are lemons, and offer full free, fully functional replacements to all users.

I just see this as some corporate harrassing a hobbyist, a hobbyist who did absolutely no harm to the corporate in the first place. If there was piracy, sue the pirates. But a modder? What a load of bunk, since it is done all of the time, and OCN is one of the hotbeds of such "illegal activities" - which are obviously not illegal because Intel, AMD, MS and other companies have never sued anyone for modding a system. They even encourage it by offering things like processors that can be unlocked.

Console unlocking != Piracy
Console unlocking == Court case
Console unlocking == Beg people for money
Of course they are going to go after the modder because if it weren't for him alot of these pirates wouldn't be pirates.
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