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[PS3Crunch] Geohot is Asking for Your Donation - Page 19

post #181 of 240
19 pages of two groups spitting the exact same points at each other over and over again.

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post #182 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sin100 View Post
It's not illegal to void your warranty.
However, this is the case Sony is attempting to pursue - that the modding is actually illegal, and that they are using the EULA and the warranty to apply "correcting patches" without the user's informed consent. That are attempting to withdraw something that is actually included as a feature, without giving compensation in return. Like, if Sony said "we are taking OtherOS out, and we will rebate you $100 to do so" - that is a different thing, because the end user is informed and is being compensated. But they are doing this unilaterally.

Of course, it becomes slander because Sony is claiming GeoHot is engaged in acts of piracy - when apparently, GeoHot has not engaged in any piracy, had not reaped any profit, and has not damaged Sony or anyone else in any way - and this is nothing more than malicious prosecution.

I am not saying that they should allow rampant cheating. Sony has the right to chop out the cheaters, but by the measure of the law, the cheaters should actually be cheating, not just someone that modded their machine so it will dual-boot. And they do not need EULAs or firmware patches to inhibit the cheaters, they can do that simply by fixing PSN so that cheaters are chopped off, without having to take anyone to court.

People cheat at the casinos in Vegas - the casinos simply kick them out, without having to go to court and prosecuting the card manufacturers for producing playing cards that the cheat used to learn how to cheat on.

If Sony doesn't like OtherOS - they can simply refuse to service those units, so long as they refuse only on the units that never had legitimate OtherOS in the first place. If the unit had OtherOS - they have to service it, it's their baby.
post #183 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Intel can entirely claim that overclocking might produce instability, and hence, is illegal. Same with motherboard makers - and this is entirely evidenced by the fact that if you fly a processor by overclocking it, they will not cover it under warranty. What the law states is that it must do damage to the company - and if you overclock and fry a processor - it does no damage to Intel because you bought the product. Intel doesn't go out and lodge a lawsuit saying that you shouldn't have overclocked because it tarnishes their reputation, or that it might have caused some kind of crash that is a breach of security. Nor is anyone suing the engineers at Intel, because it is their inventions that enable most of the piracy that goes on in the first place.

2. No, they do not. The entire PURPOSE behind Windows is to encourage software development; it is shared source, which the PS3 software is not. Windows wouldn't be where it is now if it wasn't for the tremendous library of software that runs on it.

Wrong - Windows is completely closed source, monolithic, and proprietary - but MS still doesn't sue people that choose to install non-MS software on their systems, and that might even resort to various unapproved hacks to run two or more OSes on a Windows system. In fact, if MS attempted this (and they have before) - it is called anti-trust and anti-competitive, no matter what they might put into an EULA. No contract can be enforced that breaks the law.



It's only against the law if it does damage to Sony - of which this does not because 1. GeoHot did not sell this as a for-profit item, or an item that would detract from the sales of PS3's, and did not produce this to commit acts of fraud against Sony 2. bypassing security is not "against the law", only the act of piracy is, of which GeoHot did not do. 3. defective security systems is a liability against Sony, they produced a lemon, they have to repair the damage.

This is more of a problem on Sony's part, because it shows their cards, that they will fraudulently "update" someones system without fair warning that the update will remove functionality that was a feature of the contract to purchase in the first case. It would be like if MS issued an "update" for "security reasons" that would brick your Windows system if you were not using their approved Internet Explorer - or if they chose to issue a Service Pack that would remove USB Drive support because USB Drives are used for piracy - of they remove CD/DVD support because of "piracy".



Wrong analogy - it is like suing to force all of the locksmiths out if business because they sell keys - keys that someone could purchase and use their own tools on in order to make a key that would break into my house. Or perhaps suing all of the wire manufacturers and copper mining companies because they enable the hotwiring of cars. Sony is pursuing the wrong person. They need to go after the pirates, and to lock down their network with actual security - not to go after a modder who simply unlocked a feature that the system already has.



How does that justify the malicious prosecution of hobbyists and modders?



You actually agree not to alter or reverse engineer anything that any of these companies create. However, Intel and AMD don't bother because they know that they would loose, and find more profit in a business model where they make money selling products.

MS sues people all of the time - it's a long list. However, the law protects innovators, and guarantees an open market. MS attempted for years to preclude other browsers - they claimed that tight integration of IE with their OS was mandatory - and this ended up clobbering Netscape. But then, the courts found that MS was engaged in anti-competitive, trust-building, and broke that apart. Now you can run whatever browser you want. If your Firefox busts Windows - that's your problem, MS doesn't cover that under warranty - but they are not suing you for installing a Firefox add-on either.

I find it curious where you think MS "encourages" people to cop their code and perform all kinds of reverse engineering - because this has never been the case. MS won't even give up on their antiques, and would entirely prosecute anyone that tried to reverse engineer and sell for-profit some recompilation of DOS. Don't kid youself - what keeps MS out of garbage lawsuits like Sony is engaged in is because their lawyers are smart enough to know they don't have much of a case, and that the fallout from such a case would be the main source of damages to MS itself.

MS damaged itself many times. I think their whole IE thing was a debacle, because sure, for a few moments, IE was the king of the hill - but it really opened up people to alternatives, and now, IE is the thing that you use when you first crank a Windows system over, so you can download Firefox or Chrome or whatever. I think if someone created some giant hack and used it for piracy - MS might pursue that; but I have never heard of MS prosecuting a modder for dual booting a system, or running Windows in a virtualizer.



So in other words:

Sony Invents The CD-R == Piracy == Sony Needing To Sue Themselves Because They Enabled Piracy.

Console Unlocking != Online Game Cheating

Rather:

Poor Network Security == Online Cheating
Security Patches != Security
Security Patches == Big Brotherism == Malicious Prosecution Of Hobbyists && Modders

This case == Fail For Sony, because people will just go buy an XBox 360, which is a superior machine with better games anyways, but without big brother suing you for noodling with somethine and blaming you for piracy.

My posts keep being deleted despite they fact they contribute to this argument and they break absolutely no rules. Excellent! I'm glad to know flawed logic, bad emotionally driven opinions, and complete ignorance of the law is accepted, but telling someone their are wrong justifies a removal.

Evan, your logic is completely flawed.
You == Wrong.
You are completely wrong. You keep claiming the same thing without any valid logic or reasoning. You are completely disregarding the facts and replacing it with your own personal, deformed, views of the of what ever you think is true. Sony doesn't warn people of updates? How is the "Update is available, would you like to install it [Yes] [No]" >> Followed by a Terms of Service which you have to agree to in order to continue, not count as a "fair warning"? It makes NO sense. They don't sneak up and update it, not to mention you can easily find the release notes on their website, it isn't hidden. The only malicious thing in this conversation is the hobbyist and hackers. They break contracts they agree to. It is simple, get over it. Sony isn't anywhere in the wrong. No where NEAR in the wrong. The fault all lies on the "hobbyist" and "hackers". Now, AGAIN. I'm going to direct you to my previous posts I wrote just for you. I know you don't want to read it because it shows how entirely wrong you are and we all know how ignorance is bliss.
http://www.overclock.net/software-ne...l#post12447392
http://www.overclock.net/software-ne...l#post12439448

Next time my post gets removed without proper reasoning, I'll email an administrator. I'm not insulting the kid. I'm not trolling. I'm not making negative contributions. Only thing claimable is being off topic, but the topic has changed from the beginning, I am staying on the altered topic which I didn't alter. Therefor, I am on topic. The links provided refers to a post of mine that directly pertains the claims Evan has, instead of copy/pasting I am just referring to what has already been discussed by willingly disregarded.
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post #184 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
To all of you who "hate" cheating in the PS3, sorry to say but hating him and praising sony for winning this case won't get your "good times" back.
But then again, there are people that equate "cheating" to "OtherOS" - which isn't the case. If Sony wants to do something about cheaters, they should just fix PSN and deal with it without annoying the court system. If they hate OtherOS, for whatever reason, they shouldn't have engineered a system that had that ability in the first place.

Quote:
Yeah he allowed cheating (indirectly), but eventually sony will patch it so that modded PS3's will get banned/disconnected from PSN. MS did it, so quit whining.
I think the core of the problem is that Sony is attempting to ban modded machines, rather than just the cheaters. It isn't like OtherOS is some wierd hack for the PS3, it is a built in feature that is integral to the machine. Even though Sony withdrew it, it is obviously still there and still entirely usable. Then they get involved in some crazy fantasy case where they are taking people to court, not for infringing on design licenses or cloning systems for profit or even for piracy - but for posting stuff on blogs or YouTube, stuff that is just hobby and modding, and not done for the creation of profit.

It just seems to me that too many people can't decouple the two things that are at work: that on one hand you have people being persecuted for modding or discussing modding or making comments about modding, none of which is illegal in the free world; and on the other hand, the rampant amount of piracy and cheating that Sony is not pursuing at all because they know it is a lost cause until they fix their system.

And that might be the very core of the problem, in that Sony can't figure out how to fix the problem without examining the code created by the modders, and that instead of asking nicely, they let the lawyers loose.

I do not recall MS going out and borking people's machines and suing modders. I think they just figured out the problems themselves, and made significant improvements to their online gaming environment, and dealt with cheating in that manner - rather than suing LG for marketing DVD Burners and HP for marketing the blank DVD disks used for piracy...
post #185 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaldari View Post
19 pages of two groups spitting the exact same points at each other over and over again.

This thread:

DUDE I LOLd.
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post #186 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
But then again,
*Pokes his own eyes out with a fork and eats them*

I'm done. Stopped reading at "again."
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post #187 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Evan, your logic is completely flawed.
In your opinion. There are lots of parallels when it comes to modding. I think the closest to computer modding is automobile modding. And that is something that is age old, and there are small and large companies, and millions of people engaged in modding their vehicles. Vehicles are covered by the same types of regulations and laws that computing devices are covered by. No automobile company has sued a modder - even those who engage in radical modifications. No car companies remove aftermarket equipment from your car and force you to return to stock parts when you go in for an oil change. Manufacturers of speed equipment are not sued because their parts allow you to choose to break the law.

You have to make the separation between the mod, which is nothing more than unlocking what the machine is capable of; and the alleged cheating and piracy, which is a separate issue.

Quote:
Sony doesn't warn people of updates? How is the "Update is available, would you like to install it [Yes] [No]" >> Followed by a Terms of Service which you have to agree to in order to continue, not count as a "fair warning"?
Sony does not say, in clear terms, that they are retracting a feature than the system had originally been purchased with. It is like if MS issued an SP that retracted the ability to run Firefox or Chrome, and forced you to run IE only. They could even put that in as a "term of service", but it is still illegal, because under contract law, one can not unilaterally withdraw a term without the provision for compensation. So for this to be a legal action, Sony would have to have a pop-up box that would say "By agreeing to this, the OtherOS feature will be withdrawn for a rebate of $25." or something like that. They can't just take away something that you had already agreed to during the purchase.

There is also freedom of speech, which Sony is infringing upon by prosecuting people that had blogged or posted videos of, or whatever. None of that is illegal in the US. Cheating in online games, Sony can deal with that by fixing PSN, rather than prosecuting some modders that are not engaged in cheating. And piracy, go after the pirates, like the people that own DVD burners.

Quote:
The fault all lies on the "hobbyist" and "hackers". Now, AGAIN. I'm going to direct you to my previous posts I wrote just for you
I don't see any fault, since hobbying, modding, and hardware hacking are completely legitimate and legal pursuits that do not cause damage to anyone else. Just like having a train set to fiddle with in the basement does no harm to Union Pacific or BNSF. Just like people that choose to run ChromeOS on a netbook are not doing anything illegal, even though one can make the case that OSes like ChromeOS or Linux do "damage" to Win7 Starter...
post #188 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Sony does not say, in clear terms, that they are retracting a feature than the system had originally been purchased with. It is like if MS issued an SP that retracted the ability to run Firefox or Chrome, and forced you to run IE only. They could even put that in as a "term of service", but it is still illegal, because under contract law, one can not unilaterally withdraw a term without the provision for compensation. So for this to be a legal action, Sony would have to have a pop-up box that would say "By agreeing to this, the OtherOS feature will be withdrawn for a rebate of $25." or something like that. They can't just take away something that you had already agreed to during the purchase.
Except car manufacturers don't have (their own) encrypted closed source software integrated into their cars, making the legality of such removal of features a completely different scenario. Kind of skipping past all the car nonsense here.

You've sure got it wrong. The only way the terms of agreement are changed is if you update your firmware. By downloading the update, you are agreeing to the new terms. Now, whether you read the changes before agreeing is a totally different scenario that is all on you. It doesn't matter if there's no compensation. If you are given the option to back out of the new contract and disagree with the changes in the new terms, the law does not require any compensation for changes and your existing contract remains effective. If Sony FORCE FEEDS you the update the second you turn on your PS3, they may be obligated to pay you a refund as they have changed your contract without notice. Sony, however, made it well-known days before the update released. A few had already complained to Sony about it and were told to simply decline the update, so there is NO denying that Sony gave sufficient notice about the removal of OtherOS.

I'm by no means using the following as an analogy; I'm only trying to explain how contracts and terms of agreements work.

When you rent a home, you sign a contract. At times, that contract may state that your monthy rent is fixed and cannot change whether it be an increase or a decrease within your lease term. If the landlord wants to offer you a new contract within the lease of the initial contract that states the rent may change at any time, you may legally decline, and remain on your current contract. If your landlord wants you out because you don't want to accept the new contract, you may fight that so long as you can prove that you have not violated any of his terms that he can evict you for.

I think a possible conclusion of all of this MAY be that Sony has to give you the option to rollback your firmware to offer you the OtherOS feature, which will bar you from accessing PSN.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/21/11 at 2:37pm
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post #189 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Except car manufacturers don't have (their own) encrypted closed source software integrated into their cars, making the legality of such removal of features a completely different scenario.
Actually - they do. Tuners routinely mod their engine control systems, and even twenty years ago, there was a significant business in replacement rate PROMS - the use of which never did see a Grand National owner being sued by GM.

Quote:
If you are given the option to back out of the new contract and disagree with the changes in the new terms, the law does not require any compensation for changes and your existing contract remains effective. If Sony FORCE FEEDS you the update the second you turn on your PS3, they may be obligated to pay you a refund as they have changed your contract without notice.
However, they force feed it by virtue of banning such users from PSN, which is an illegal, anti-competitive tactic. The case can also be made that Sony does not give you a real option or choice, you either relinquish a feature which was purchased, or you are borked. It might be different if they offered an option of one of two options, because it can be entirely argued that the update is a requirement to correct system deficiencies, and that such methods can not be used to remove features that were inherent and agreed to in advance. Just like MS can not decide to issue Win7 SP1 and retract support for USB and force you to run IE only.

Quote:
When you rent a home, you sign a contract. At times, that contract may state that your monthy rent is fixed and cannot change whether it be an increase or a decrease within your lease term. If the landlord wants to offer you a new contract within the lease of the initial contract that states the rent may change at any time, you may legally decline, and remain on your current contract.
Sure, you are given the chance to decline. But what Sony proposes, in this case, is that if you don't sign the new contract, they are removing the kitchen from the house.

Quote:
If your landlord wants you out because you don't want to accept the new contract, you may fight that so long as you can prove that you have not violated any of his terms that he can evict you for.
Most jurisdictions have regulations, like the Landlord Tenant Act, which regulate such things. However, no matter what the contract, a landlord can not arbitrarily choose to change the terms of the contract. They can't decide that since you don't use the second bedroom all that much, that they want to move another family into the room and rent it. They can't boot you out of the house because you decided to buy a Ford or that you run Linux on a computer.

Quote:
I think a possible conclusion of all of this MAY be that Sony has to give you the option to rollback your firmware to offer you the OtherOS feature, which will bar you from accessing PSN.
Sure, that is a solution. But I think in the end, Sony ends up being an Evil Empire. Stuff like this really ruins any investment that Sony makes in advertisements, just like MS shoving IE onto everyone backfired in the long run. I think Sony leaves themselves open to charges of malicious prosecution as well, and could end up paying GeoHot big time, just like other cases where corporates have ended up dishing out big cash for dumb moves.
post #190 of 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanPitts View Post
Sure, you are given the chance to decline. But what Sony proposes, in this case, is that if you don't sign the new contract, they are removing the kitchen from the house.
Your entire post was pretty reasonable this time around, other than the above. I'll accept the ECU comment although the ECU of a car is by no means restricted nor closed source software. I'll just let that debate go as it is aside from the topic and in a completely unrelated market as well.

If your landlord had (in the contract) stated that they may remove bits and pieces out of the unit if they ever desired (such as walling off a bedroom that is attached to their own home) they certainly can, just like Sony is removing the OtherOS and stated that they may remove any feature at any time. Sony removing OtherOS is not at all like your landlord removing your rented apartment's kitchen, unless they specifically stated in your contract that they can remove anything from the structure of the apartment at any time.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/21/11 at 3:26pm
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Overclock.net › Forums › Industry News › Video Game News › [PS3Crunch] Geohot is Asking for Your Donation