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post #161 of 1597
^ I think RDS On refers to a sort of chipset efficiency for the mosfet transistors, to reduce power consumption and therefore heat. You can tell if it's on or off by the number of 'legs' the mosfet chips have, 3 with the center one cut, or 4.

But Dromihetes post seems to indicate that newer chipsets may have just 3 legs but still have the feature because of better manufacturing processes recently, if I'm reading it right.

I'm sure you can find out about your motherboard in the table on the first thread or searching "transistor type asus xxxx", you're board has heatsinks on them so I can't tell by pics. It seems to be pretty good board with having so many phases and heatsinks?
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post #162 of 1597
also I think the Biostar A770E3 transistor type is 3 transistors, no drivers. If I am doing it rite, I believe this is indicative of seeing 3 identical mosfet chips per phase, as opposed to 2 mosfet chips and a third chip with 8 legs (the driver). Instead there is only 1 driver (for the entire VRM module), and I believe that 3rd mosfet chipset is doing the job of the driver instead (a way for motherboards to cut costs, from what I learned).

edit: weird there are no pics of my motherboard - biostar a770e3. on newegg reviews you see people say "oh cool it came in a different red/black color", which is what I got, but looking at the picture, I realized the VRM is totally different. On the pictured mobo, there is 2 mosfet chips (cant find the driver or 3rd chip, not sure what modulates the power) but on my red/black version, there is just 3 x 3legged mosfet chips. Also, the 'older' board version has an obvious open, round ferrite choke at the top corner (not for phase though, not sure what its for).
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post #163 of 1597
After reading this article:
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/959289-cpu-vrm-mosfets-transistor-discussion.html

I was like "i wonder how to identify what mosfets I have" only to see a big "NIKOS" on the mosfet chips.

T_________________________T
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post #164 of 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belial;12666512 
After reading this article:
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/959289-cpu-vrm-mosfets-transistor-discussion.html

I was like "i wonder how to identify what mosfets I have" only to see a big "NIKOS" on the mosfet chips.

smile.gif
It s a military grade MOSFET smile.gif


I repeat ,RDS ON is the resistance that the field effect transistor -MOSFET , has between Drain and Source.

A field effect transistor has 3 pins(connectors).
One it s called Gate ,one Drain and one is Source.
The specific thing is that when you apply current to the Gate the Drain to Source path opens and becomes a resistence practically.
Depeding on the mosfet quality it goes towards 0 Ohm more or less.

If this jonction goes towards 0 Ohm then the transistor gives less heat ,at least his is what i understood.
This Drain to Source should become wide open when current is applyed not when is not powered.
The newer the MOSFET the lower this RDS On is.Less resistence means less heat delivered.

In power switching voltage supplyers ,the capcitors and the MOSFET need to have the lowest equivalent ressitance for maixmum efficiency and working low heat.

This is what i know ,i have to say that i am a simple audio amateur ,building smalll amplifiers so i m not some pro or graduate in this technical filed.
I may be mistaking in my statements here and there so take my statements with a grain of salt.


MOSFET : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET
Edited by Dromihetes - 3/9/11 at 4:16am
   
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post #165 of 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Everything-You-Need-to-Know-About-The-Motherboard-Voltage-Regulator-Circuit/616/3 
An easy way to differentiate the two is by counting the number of available terminals. Traditional transistors have three legs, with the center leg usually cut, while transistors with low RDS(on) have four or more legs and all of them are soldered to the motherboard.

Are you mixing them up Dromihetes? I would defer to you on this matter but this article says differently. From the sound of that first post of yours, you said 'newer transistors' are better now, and this article is a year old, but this article says 3 leg doens't have RDS on and you saying they do.

From what I understand though, high vs low quality VRM is all about how much heat they produce and how much they use, from more phases meaning lower loads on each, to electrolytic capacitors not as tolerant to heat as solid capacitors. This is why I plan to put makeshift heatsinks on my mosfets on my motherboard, even though it's recommended not to overvolt/unlock on it.
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post #166 of 1597
Belial ,have you took the time to read this data sheet ?!

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:7Sudlo_ZYS4J:www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/17/171458_1.pdf+K+3919+mosfet&hl=ro&gl=ro&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiuzzdZxonAbfXvpc7dIt1gp6Ck7I90FMum2LqKa95kAKj1OJKST1BLdquDbgurUGC2s4z-rqvsnrIlzpqAHv2oSj-lps0eKWuLFSTednF9-4hz5x2goT5zafnBNR4XCF5t9hjR&sig=AHIEtbQvWtXHbUWk3OV2Epk6QRX85Y-GPw

Read the Electrical characteristics chart on the right .It s a NEC data sheet from 2005.That transistor is used on 770-UD3 v2.0 (my sample)
Look carefully you will see RDS ON specifications.
So do they have it or not ?!

The problem is the level of that RDS On ,higher or lower.Lower means better more suited for Power MOSFET
I will not say nothing about that article.

As you can see the mosfet from wikipedia there is stated that there are different MOSFETS ,take a read there as well.

The problem is the quality of this MOSFETS not necesarelly the incapsulation of them.
The 4 leged MOSFET must be something superior ,but this doesnt mean that the mosfets in TO 252 capsule are no good ,as a lot of people have mobos with them and they are working.

We need an electronics engineer over here to explain this smile.gif .

Brand counts of course smile.gif ,just the fact they have 4 legs doesnt mean to much smile.gif
Edited by Dromihetes - 3/9/11 at 6:57am
   
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post #167 of 1597
I recommend a slight rename of this article:
"AMD Motherboard TDP and VRM system info"
Or something similar. I find this as a useful resource for TDP support as well as VRM info.

Low RDS (on) is a new type of MOSFET that is smaller and runs cooler.

Belial perhaps you could take a pic of your mobo and post it here for reference?
post #168 of 1597
Forgive me, I literally didn't know what the difference between a PSU and a GPU was a month ago. I was sorta forced into building a computer (roommate moved his shared computer into a not-so-shared-his-bedroom when I came back from a month in Africa) and I had to make a computer that could play like a high level gaming computer for $420 or less (limit I had on credit card, I still haven't paid rent on time since January). I think I've learned a lot about computers, and starting to notice that I am sometimes more knowledgeable than forum members on tech websites. I now know how to thoroughly overclock through Bios (not BE either, thats retarded) everything in a system, I just learned about what makes a motherboard besides "can it fit" this week (basically VRM quality), and find that I am relatively, quite knowledgeable about PC hardware.

So with that said, I'll take a look at those articles, but I may have a hard time understanding without being told 'exactly' where to read.

Now I totally dig what you are saying - if my motherboard is actually high quality and can handle me unlocking and overvolting even though it's a 3+1 with solid capacitors on the phase but many electrolytic Taiwanese OCTs, 3 legged mosfets instead of 4, and an extra mosfet instead of a driver, that's completely awesome. xd_1771 would say I'm being stupid, but I am in the process of putting makeshift heatsinks on my mosfets so I can be safe.

I don't really understand why you won't comment on the article, but as the quote shows, it states pretty clearly that 3 legged is worse than 4. You do realize I am talking about my own Biostar A770E3 motherboard, not some MSI board right? And just because it works doesn't mean it's safe, or won't blow out later. I didn't even say what kind of NIKOS chips I have. I can hardly, hardly read them, and there appears to be 3 or 4 kind all over my mobo. The mosfets say:
NIKOS
P06030BDL
SIE344B1 [sic, it's impossible to make this one out]

i really have no clue how to read that electrical chart, I'm really just learning about all of this now and my knowlege is that article I posted. But from what I read, Biostar > MSI for VRM quality, although it doesn't really matter as the motherboard company doesn't make the chipsets, capacitors, transistors, or drivers - the mobo company just selects the parts and hopefully they select a good company and configuration, and it's hard to find information about it. I think that 99% of overclockers don't even know about the VRM so it's hard to find people talking on forums about it they just go "ah sucks you blew out your motherboard, you should replace your PSU".
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post #169 of 1597
NIKOS P06030BDL are the ones that fail on MSI mobos
NIKOS P04030BDL are the ones that crapped on my mobo and they have no data sheet ,they don t exist smile.gif

As you can see Nikos imprint is not carved into the plastic capsule so it can be changed modified or whatever.
Quality manufacturers of semiconductors imprint the code into the plastic capsule ,can t be faked easy.

Also the MOSFETS are "pulsed" by another chip ,this can be different on the makers as well.
The MOSFETS can be selected by some worker before beeing installed or they can just use them ,maybe this is one of the secrets.

Practically you say your BIOSTAR works even if it has those mosfets.You will be one of the people to tell us if they work better on the BIOSTAR than on MSI ,but keep in mind that the characteristics of this Mosfets ,as niko-sem states them are not great.
You really can t compare the quality of Nikos to National Semiconductor ,Fairchild ,Renesas etc , as well as you can t compare Rubycon capacitors to Teapo.

Even if Biostar VRM > MSI VRM , what is the problem smile.gif

I m just expressing my opinion ,that Nikos mosfets are not trustfull for CPU VRM incarnations and not necesarrely because they have 3 legs.
I m pretty sure that if you would like to make a custom project with some Power Mosfets involved you would choose something else instead of Nikos. smile.gif
Yes ,you can use them in low temperature areas on the mobo, they may be ok ,but what if they simply have leaks (bad manufacturing) and that is the thing killing them ?
As you can see they don t go in smoke imediatelly , they need time to cook.

Edit:
http://products.niko-sem.com/index.php?action=prod_list&cat=24

As you can see P0603BDL seems to have RDS On a little higher than P0603BD

Nikos P0603BD is the one used on the 870A-G54

I see that on your mobo the MOSFETS are also installed with biger gaps between themselves ,maybe a better heat disipation per capita.
Edited by Dromihetes - 3/9/11 at 1:52pm
   
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post #170 of 1597
Motherboard Biostar A770E3 (that's clearly different from the one pictured on newegg - besides red/black color scheme instead of blue/yellow/orange, VRM looks different)
IMG_20110204_222233.jpg

(Close up of VRM, the +1 is above CPU socket so the view is blocked of it).
IMG_20110309_160135.jpg

I think it's a 3+1, of course, there's that different type of choke, as you can see (the darker one with raised letters instead of printed). There is another of that smaller choke by RAM memory. I think 3+1 is CPU+IMC right? So I have like 5 phases in total on the motherboard? So is it a 3CPU+1IMC+1RAM? Or 4CPU+1RAM? Or 3(CPU)+1(RAM)? There's 3 of those ferrite block chokes with gold letters, then another one above the socket that's blocked by the tower cooler in the 2nd picture, and then there's 2 of those smaller raised-lettering ferrite chokes, one in between the top two solid capacitors as you can see in the picture and one on the right side of the board on the side edge by the RAM. Ah, confusing ;/
Edited by Belial - 3/9/11 at 2:34pm
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