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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 2

post #11 of 172
Nice. I'm pretty sure Sony will laugh this last standing claim off. Case in point: Any and all users who lost OtherOS lost it by willingly downloading the update, which was announced on Sony's blog a few days in advance with a notice that OtherOS would be removed. March 28th they announced it on their blog, and the update was released on April 1st. As of March 31st, their blog post had 4,440 comments on it, meaning they certainly did their job of communicating the removal.

HealthyBigMac: OtherOS was never advertised as a core feature.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/21/11 at 3:17pm
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post #12 of 172
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedEarth View Post
But surely there is something in the EULA that gives Sony the right to modify their OS any time they please?

Obviously the EULA doesn't hold as much weight as a written law, but it may be enough for a dismissal. Especially considering the removal of the software feature didn't encroach upon the primary (or even secondary) function of the device, respectively being a gaming and media centre. Nor was the system advertised as a Linux box to begin with.
I'm not sure on this matter but it doesn't seem like it should matter whether Linux feature was advertised heavily. Why should it matter if there was a heavy marketing campaign around Linux or people learned of the function through reading press releases/ the manual? The fact that this was included in the specifications of the item itself seems to imply that informed consumers should have been able to expect use of such a feature.

Additionally, the functionality of the device seems like something defined by the user and it is hard to legally define the purpose of a multifunctional console that "only does everything". The fact that there is a class of people who felt invested in the Linux function of their PS3 seems to imply that there was ownership interest in that function of the PS3.
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post #13 of 172
Thread Starter 
Stealth Pyros: How can you legally define what a core feature is? It shouldn't be up to the producer of the hardware to define what a core feature is and what are secondary features of the hardware they produce.
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post #14 of 172
Well, I'm not sure what the outcome will be, but they've talked themselves into the corner now. Their going to either lose this case or Geohot's case.
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post #15 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos89 View Post
Stealth Pyros: How can you legally define what a core feature is? It shouldn't be up to the producer of the hardware to define what a core feature is and what are secondary features of the hardware they produce.
The whole "was OtherOS advertised?" debate is at this point totally tossed aside. EVEN IF IT WAS advertised (it wasn't. I've gone over this two or three times already and won't go over it any further here) every PSN user agreed to the terms of agreement that Sony may at any time remove any feature from your system via updates. The PS3 came with OtherOS, it lived up its promise to ANY advertisement mentioning OtherOS at all, which again, there were none. That's 1 notice. In addition to that, Sony announced the update 3 or 4 days before it actually released, and clearly stated that OtherOS would be removed. The blog post received 4,000 comments in 3 days; surely, that's indication that the communication did its job of communicating to plenty of its audience. That's 2 notices. ON TOP OF those two facts, Sony GAVE everyone one last opportunity to decline the update. That's 3 chances to back out of agreeing to the PS3's terms of use. Sony did not force the update onto anyone's PS3. Don't agree to the new terms? Cool, keep your OtherOS, but you can't use PSN until you agree to its new terms.

I don't really understand your second sentence. You're saying that someone who produces a product SHOULDN'T be the ones to outline what that product does or includes? That's... pretty far-fetched. Who IS supposed to then? You're saying that every product should undergo some sort of government assessment that outlines each single feature and component of a product? Say goodbye to affordable hardware if so. And... I don't get it. Even if such a system were in place, Sony still has the right to remove any feature.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/21/11 at 4:07pm
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post #16 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
The whole "was OtherOS advertised?" debate is at this point totally tossed aside. EVEN IF IT WAS advertised (it wasn't. I've gone over this two or three times already and won't go over it any further here) every PSN user agreed to the terms of agreement that Sony may at any time remove any feature from your system via updates. That's 1 notice. In addition to that, Sony announced the update 3 or 4 days before it actually released, and clearly stated that OtherOS would be removed. That's 2 notices. ON TOP OF those two facts, Sony GAVE everyone one last opportunity to decline the update. That's 3 chances to back out of agreeing to the PS3's terms of use. Sony did not force the update onto anyone's PS3. Don't agree to the new terms? Cool, keep your OtherOS, but you can't use PSN until you agree to its new terms.

I don't really understand your second sentence. You're saying that someone who produces a product SHOULDN'T be the ones to outline what that product does or includes? That's... pretty far-fetched. Who IS supposed to then?

This ^

Not to mention, you weren't removed of your ability to play any games, unless it was just an online game such as MAG. So, you wouldn't lose any "core" feature by not updating. This is ridiculous, I'd be totally surprised if Sony loses this. If they do, which is highly doubtful, I won't bother ever upholding to what ever I agreed to anymore, because it obviously wouldn't matter in court.
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post #17 of 172
Can't say we didn't all see it coming back to the removal of OtherOS eventually.

Man, juggling this and the Geohot case sony has it's hands full.
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post #18 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
this ^

not to mention u wernt removed of ur ability to play any games unles it was just an online game such as MAG so u wuldnt loose any core feature by not updating. this is ridiculous. id be totally suprised if sony looses this if they do which is highly doubtful i wont bother ever upholding to wut ever i agreed too anymore cus it obviously wuldnt matter in court and than id haf no raison to follow laws anymore and id go on a murderus rampage.
Periods. Hear of them ?

I'm getting burned out on these threads.

Sony is well within their rights to remove secondary features, and prohibit people from accessing their network with modified consoles. Just as I'm well within my rights to add secondary features and modify my console.

Has anyone overclocked their PS3? No? Then why are we talking about them?
Edited by dzalias - 2/21/11 at 4:31pm
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post #19 of 172
Well, there are two other things to be considered in the "agree to lose otherOS or lose PSN" argument, neither of which have I seen brought up anywhere.

First is access to Netflix, which is pretty heavily advertised both by Sony and by Netflix as being usable on a PS3. But what they don't tell you is, even though you pay a separate fee for Netflix completely outside of Sony's jurisdiction, and the fact that the Netflix servers have nothing to do with Sony, there is a completely arbitrary requirement that you be signed on to PSN in order to be allowed Netflix access. And since Netflix no longer supports the disc based PS3 client, choosing not to update to Sony's latest firmware bans your console from reaching the Netflix servers.

Second, if memory serves the last otherOS-capable firmware was 3.15 or so, give or take a revision. People love to say that not upgrading your firmware only denies you PSN, but it is also designed to deny you the ability to play any game released under SDKs built on any post 3.15 firmware. This would make sense as later firmwares should offer functionality that these games require, but in actuality they don't in most cases. In cases other than MOVE support or 3D, modders have been able to modify the eboot.bin file of newer game to "spoof" post 3.15 firmwares and the games have run without issue. Which rather clearly negates the "added functionality" argument.

As a person who likes to tinker but is firmly against piracy, both those things irk me, the Netflix one most of all. Just seems to me that Sony should leave the features there, and go after the people who abuse them, instead of making things worse for everyone while not really deterring the pirates. Or in other words, pretty much the inevitable end-result of DRM wars on any system.
post #20 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by aginor37 View Post
Well, there are two other things to be considered in the "agree to lose otherOS or lose PSN" argument, neither of which have I seen brought up anywhere.

First is access to Netflix, which is pretty heavily advertised both by Sony and by Netflix as being usable on a PS3. But what they don't tell you is, even though you pay a separate fee for Netflix completely outside of Sony's jurisdiction, and the fact that the Netflix servers have nothing to do with Sony, there is a completely arbitrary requirement that you be signed on to PSN in order to be allowed Netflix access. And since Netflix no longer supports the disc based PS3 client, choosing not to update to Sony's latest firmware bans your console from reaching the Netflix servers.
Install OS. Install browser. Install Silverlight. BAM. Netflix. Problem solved.

Quote:
Second, if memory serves the last otherOS-capable firmware was 3.15 or so, give or take a revision. People love to say that not upgrading your firmware only denies you PSN, but it is also designed to deny you the ability to play any game released under SDKs built on any post 3.15 firmware. This would make sense as later firmwares should offer functionality that these games require, but in actuality they don't in most cases. In cases other than MOVE support or 3D, modders have been able to modify the eboot.bin file of newer game to "spoof" post 3.15 firmwares and the games have run without issue. Which rather clearly negates the "added functionality" argument.

As a person who likes to tinker but is firmly against piracy, both those things irk me, the Netflix one most of all. Just seems to me that Sony should leave the features there, and go after the people who abuse them, instead of making things worse for everyone while not really deterring the pirates. Or in other words, pretty much the inevitable end-result of DRM wars on any system.
Nothing stopping custom firmware from expanding upon the most recent official firmware.
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