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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 12

post #111 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe;12487630 
Not until there was nothing left. Just until something was removed that I used. Once that happened, I'd drop support of them and move on to another company that can provide the satisfaction. That is how competition works. Instead, people think they have the right for all companies to meet their every need, and if they don't then they think they have grounds to sue. It is ridiculous.

and thats the problem with alot of people. They sue when they have no grounds to sue on, this however is different as Consumer laws protect us from removing features.

Here is another anology for ya, its like, lets use sony again, a Sony 46" Internet rdy tv, you buy it, come home, plug it into your cable and bam, works perfectly. 4 months later sony is having a little problem, with lets say, comcast, so they make an update that you dont have to do, but it wont let you watch anything unless you update, so you update...and then everyone with comcast can only watch tv in SD, no more HD. Thats illegal. Its not free trade, its not competition, its illegal.
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post #112 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Destroyer View Post
I want to see sony fail cause it puts some rights back into our hands. What i meant with the MS thing is, you buy a game not made by microsoft(ie madden) and ontop of the $60, they charge you $1 per time you play compared to Gears of war, that costs $60 and nothing each time you play. Its not "big business" i hate, its Big business that are shady companies, much like sony is acting right now. there are consumer laws that protect us from sony removing Blu-ray playback, and such. Sony is pushing the envelope to see how far they can push it, and this time they got pushed back. On the grounds alone(before sonys deep pockets effect any judges)the class action lawsuit should win. The removal of OtherOS violates the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act point blank. there is no denying this at all. We paid for a feature that was later removed, either fix it and re-allow OtherOS, or refund people the money.

Sonys defense is it was an optional update. Just cause sony claims it was an optional update, dosnt mean its so. A update required to play certain(purchased) games, is not optional.
I am not sure how that falls under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, that usually protects Government (Fed and State) or Financial Related computers. I mean you are welcome to explain that one better to me.

I see what you meant about Microsoft, which in your case would violate anti-trust/anti-competitive business and I believe the First-Sale Doctrine (regarding unfair prices for similar products to different consumers.)

If Sony remove the Blu-Ray functionality, as this item is a key advertised feature that was fit for production, they would open themselves open to lawsuits left and right in order for consumers to get their money back. The OtherOS was an experimental feature/concept, its was never majorly advertised (don't let anyone lie to you, look it up for yourself), and it was removed to protect the functionality of all features on ALL consoles AND the integrity of online services as well as Firmware for ALL consumers. So even if what they did was some kind of violation to some consumer's rights (thereby all pre-3.21 firmware PS3 consumers) it will probably win the legal battle due to the reason it disabled such a feature. The evidence will be mandatory and made public however.

The update in question also was not mandatory. You are not mandatorily forced to buy games either, especially if you know they don't work on your old firmware. The example of MAG was brought up that it is an online only title, but if you are aware of this (which you are) and you know that by choosing not to upgrade, you forfeit your right for this online game, again its all your choice.

Had Sony FORCED the update, they would open themselves up to legal battle where they would have lost or settled out of court.

Many of you may not like this, but its legal. You can raise awareness, you can boycott products, and if you don't really like it, grow up or study for law, and make changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Destroyer View Post
and thats the problem with alot of people. They sue when they have no grounds to sue on, this however is different as Consumer laws protect us from removing features.

Here is another anology for ya, its like, lets use sony again, a Sony 46" Internet rdy tv, you buy it, come home, plug it into your cable and bam, works perfectly. 4 months later sony is having a little problem, with lets say, comcast, so they make an update that you dont have to do, but it wont let you watch anything unless you update, so you update...and then everyone with comcast can only watch tv in SD, no more HD. Thats illegal. Its not free trade, its not competition, its illegal.
I can see the disclaimer on the box.

Quote:
HD SERVICE NOT GUARANTEED IN ALL AREAS, CONTACT YOUR LOCAL INTERNET SERVICE AND CABLE PROVIDERS IN YOUR AREA.
Tell me you haven't seen anything along those lines before

Joking aside, I don't see the point of making analogies that have not happened, can not happen, or are illegal for other reasons. This would be First-Sale Doctrine & Anti-Competitive Business Practice violation.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 5:16pm
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post #113 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Destroyer View Post
and thats the problem with alot of people. They sue when they have no grounds to sue on, this however is different as Consumer laws protect us from removing features.

Here is another anology for ya, its like, lets use sony again, a Sony 46" Internet rdy tv, you buy it, come home, plug it into your cable and bam, works perfectly. 4 months later sony is having a little problem, with lets say, comcast, so they make an update that you dont have to do, but it wont let you watch anything unless you update, so you update...and then everyone with comcast can only watch tv in SD, no more HD. Thats illegal. Its not free trade, its not competition, its illegal.
Umm, bad example. If it works initially with the service provided by Comcast, then if you don't update it should continue to work the same way with Comcast as long as Comcast doesn't change anything. The only thing Sony could stop is access to something Sony themselves provide. Which in the PS3 situation, that is exactly what they are doing. You can keep support for OtherOS and not use their service, or you can use their service and drop OtherOS. So, your analogy doesn't fit at all.
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post #114 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I am not sure how that falls under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, that usually protects Government (Fed and State) or Financial Related computers. I mean you can definitely explain that one better.

I see what you meant about Microsoft, which in your case would violate anti-trust/anti-competitive business and I believe the First-Sale Doctrine (regarding unfair prices for similar products to different consumers.)

If Sony remove the Blu-Ray functionality as this item is a key advertised feature that was fit for production they would open themselves open to lawsuits left and right in order for consumers to get their money back.

The OtherOS was an experimental feature/concept, its was never majorly advertised (don't let anyone lie to you, look it up for yourself), and it was removed to protect the functionality of all features on ALL consoles AND the integrity of online services as well as Firmware for ALL consumers.

The update was not mandatory. You are not mandatorily forced to buy games, especially if you know they don't work on your old firmware. The example of MAG was brought up that it is an Online only title, but if you are aware of this (which you are) and you know that by choosing not to upgrade, you forfeit your right for online game, again its all your choice.

Had Sony FORCED the update, they would open themselves up to legal battle where they would have lost or settled out of court.
I understand what you are saying, but when you cannot return a game anywhere that is open except for same copy, and no where on the game does it say you need a update to be able to play, it does make it mandatory. Maybe not to you. but unless you want $60 sitting on your coffee table as a coaster, its mandatory. The CFAA was made to protect goverments pcs, but it was extended to protect consumers and business also. CFAA does state that "The law makes it unlawful to make unauthorized changes to a computer system".

Agreeing to an EULA(which is not a legal binding contract, and does not trump consumer laws) does not give sony the legal ground to remove OtherOS. But we will have to wait as i see sony, even if they loose, appealing the decision for years and years.

Ohh, I know other OS was not touted as a major ability of the PS3, although, sony dedicating 3 pages, and parts in the manual to discuss how to use it, def makes it more important then, say USB, which only had 1/2 page, or mp3, or pics. But if they removed the ability to play games, or watch movies(still same thing as removing OtherOS) people would be all up in arms over this. Just cause it was a non-advertised feature, it was still a feature you were sold. they dont want to allow it, refund me and ill go get a xbox, atleast no features have been removed on that that were sold to me when i bought it(and this is comming from a guy who bought a 360 at launch and went through 9 different 360's that kept RROD or had video issues in the first 10 months i had it.....)and i sworn i would never own another 360...and look, here i am contemplating it again due to sony being a bully...
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post #115 of 172
On the back of MAG, they inform you that it is Broadband Required and the Software License Terms are on the game AND online for viewing. In-addition to that, SCEA reserves the right to retire the online portion of this game within 90 days notice. So at any moment they could tell us MAG is done, and we will all be left with 60$ cd-coaster, but thats within their rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Destroyer View Post
I understand what you are saying, but when you cannot return a game anywhere that is open except for same copy, and no where on the game does it say you need a update to be able to play, it does make it mandatory. Maybe not to you. but unless you want $60 sitting on your coffee table as a coaster, its mandatory.
You don't need to return the game, the license agreement was available at all times even posted on the back of the game where the URL is. If you don't agree to the license, you don't purchase.

Quote:
The CFAA was made to protect goverments pcs, but it was extended to protect consumers and business also. CFAA does state that "The law makes it unlawful to make unauthorized changes to a computer system".
You believe that choosing video game compatibility over OtherOS functionality is not a choice, perhaps not fair, but you had to have made a choice regardless.

Quote:
Agreeing to an EULA(which is not a legal binding contract, and does not trump consumer laws) does not give sony the legal ground to remove OtherOS. But we will have to wait as i see sony, even if they loose, appealing the decision for years and years.
What consumer laws does it violate?

Off Topic: For those that don't have a clue what a EULA is. An End-User License Agreement is a legal contract between the leaser and leasee (you) so that you may license something. In this case, the PS3 software. A EULA to be a valid EULA must be submitted through the court systems that approves said EULA. If there was anything illegal, it would never be approved as an official EULA. That doesn't mean nothing slips by in the legality department but the fact that people think the EULA doesn't have any merit or cannot be enforced are simply wrong. There is probably a different EULA for every legal region to accommodate national laws. There are US laws that protect both the leaser and leasee from each other AND to handle breaches of said contract.

Quote:
Ohh, I know other OS was not touted as a major ability of the PS3, although, sony dedicating 3 pages, and parts in the manual to discuss how to use it, def makes it more important then, say USB, which only had 1/2 page, or mp3, or pics. But if they removed the ability to play games, or watch movies(still same thing as removing OtherOS) people would be all up in arms over this. Just cause it was a non-advertised feature, it was still a feature you were sold. they dont want to allow it, refund me and ill go get a xbox, atleast no features have been removed on that that were sold to me when i bought it(and this is comming from a guy who bought a 360 at launch and went through 9 different 360's that kept RROD or had video issues in the first 10 months i had it.....)and i sworn i would never own another 360...and look, here i am contemplating it again due to sony being a bully...
I don't know what to tell you other than they have the right to remove it, just as they have to right to add to any software on the console. It is THEIR software. You know they do, all of you do. That doesn't mean you have to like it, IT also doesn't mean that they won't now re-add (which I doubt) because their security is a bit broken now and so OtherOS no longer poses a security risk.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 7:00pm
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post #116 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I am not sure how that falls under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, that usually protects Government (Fed and State) or Financial Related computers. I mean you are welcome to explain that one better to me.

I see what you meant about Microsoft, which in your case would violate anti-trust/anti-competitive business and I believe the First-Sale Doctrine (regarding unfair prices for similar products to different consumers.)

If Sony remove the Blu-Ray functionality, as this item is a key advertised feature that was fit for production, they would open themselves open to lawsuits left and right in order for consumers to get their money back. The OtherOS was an experimental feature/concept, its was never majorly advertised (don't let anyone lie to you, look it up for yourself), and it was removed to protect the functionality of all features on ALL consoles AND the integrity of online services as well as Firmware for ALL consumers. So even if what they did was some kind of violation to some consumer's rights (thereby all pre-3.21 firmware PS3 consumers) it will probably win the legal battle due to the reason it disabled such a feature. The evidence will be mandatory and made public however.

The update in question also was not mandatory. You are not mandatorily forced to buy games either, especially if you know they don't work on your old firmware. The example of MAG was brought up that it is an online only title, but if you are aware of this (which you are) and you know that by choosing not to upgrade, you forfeit your right for this online game, again its all your choice.

Had Sony FORCED the update, they would open themselves up to legal battle where they would have lost or settled out of court.

Many of you may not like this, but its legal. You can raise awareness, you can boycott products, and if you don't really like it, grow up or study for law, and make changes.

what is your defination of "optional"?

what if your ps3 suddenly kicked the bucket and you had to get it replaced? what then, would they send you one that allowed otherOS cause you had "chosen" to keep the old firmware? or would not upgrading to the latest firmware void your warranty?

one could argue that you could "re-enable" otheros feature on your own, but wouldn't you be committing a crime then? is it acceptable to allow some one to break their ethical or moral code, to allow a company to keep its "legal" right of control?

no the question isn't does sony have the legal right based on loose eula guidelines, to remove OtherOS, it is was it legal in the way they "forced" you into a "optional" update of firmware, to continue use once of the consoles "primary" features and have access to its secondary features.

it doesn't really matter either if it was directly advertised by sony that otheros was a feature, it is in the manual, you can google about it, and find hundreds, if not thousands of review sites talking about this ability. word of mouth advertising, from my days as a manager in fast food is just as powerful as tv, magazine, radio, etc, advertising.

i tell one friend, he tells 10 friends, each of those 10 tell 10 more....you get the idea.

i've also said this before, but i will say it again, it really isn't of any concern what sony says they can do, doesn't matter what courts decide either, in the court of public opinion this will be decided.

i'm sure the concern after this wont be they removed a "experimental/testing" feature that allowed linux, it will be, what features will they remove next.
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post #117 of 172
For those supporting the free market, I applaud you. However, in a free market there are no patents nor the companies right to control their product once we have bought it. Unfortunately, we do not have a free market. It is controlled by special interests.
    
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post #118 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tufelhunden View Post
For those supporting the free market, I applaud you. However, in a free market there are no patents nor the companies right to control their product once we have bought it. Unfortunately, we do not have a free market. It is controlled by special interests.
i really don't support anything like a free market. i just grow tired of these large companies "selling" us software, hardware, consoles, technology, and then telling us "oops, you don't actually own anything, you just "lease" or "license" it from us, so we can still tell you what you can and can not do with it.

and then you have these people who support this crazy idea, either thru misplaced notion of loyalty and they will be rewarded for this loyalty at a later date, but in fact, no reward will ever be given out, just more and more of consumer rights taken away, in the interest of "progress" and "security".

like i said, i don't own a ps3, but i own other technology, that this can happen to, this should be a concern for all, not just ps3 owners.
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post #119 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
i really don't support anything like a free market. i just grow tired of these large companies "selling" us software, hardware, consoles, technology, and then telling us "oops, you don't actually own anything, you just "lease" or "license" it from us, so we can still tell you what you can and can not do with it.

and then you have these people who support this crazy idea, either thru misplaced notion of loyalty and they will be rewarded for this loyalty at a later date, but in fact, no reward will ever be given out, just more and more of consumer rights taken away, in the interest of "progress" and "security".

like i said, i don't own a ps3, but i own other technology, that this can happen to, this should be a concern for all, not just ps3 owners.
It sounds as if you and I are on the same page. I have never used Geo's hack but I support him just the same. The companies, IMO, need to be told enough is enough. I bought it, it is mine to do with as I desire for personal use.

Cheers!
    
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post #120 of 172
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Originally Posted by transhour View Post
what is your defination of "optional"?

what if your ps3 suddenly kicked the bucket and you had to get it replaced? what then, would they send you one that allowed otherOS cause you had "chosen" to keep the old firmware? or would not upgrading to the latest firmware void your warranty?
Not really any different than a video card no longer being made by a vendor and they send you an equivalent. XFX's nVidia cards are a good example of them being replaced by what they consider an equivalent product. Since those old consoles are no longer in production, one would assume that a replacement would be a new one, if its still under warranty (since Firmware 3.21 it was removed just under a year ago) its quite possible that no consoles are even protected at this point. I wouldn't even probably replace the little beasty, they are getting very dated anyways.

Optional? As in, I was not forced to do something. I can afford a candy bar or a coke. AND I don't steal the other one, I choose from the option available to me.

Quote:
one could argue that you could "re-enable" otheros feature on your own, but wouldn't you be committing a crime then? is it acceptable to allow some one to break their ethical or moral code, to allow a company to keep its "legal" right of control?
Quote:
no the question isn't does sony have the legal right based on loose eula guidelines, to remove OtherOS, it is was it legal in the way they "forced" you into a "optional" update of firmware, to continue use once of the consoles "primary" features and have access to its secondary features.
It clearly states I am not supposed to do so, voiding warranties, breaking law, yada yada yada. They can't force me to do abide by the law, BUT, they are able to enforce the law if they choose to.

Quote:
it doesn't really matter either if it was directly advertised by sony that otheros was a feature, it is in the manual, you can google about it, and find hundreds, if not thousands of review sites talking about this ability. word of mouth advertising, from my days as a manager in fast food is just as powerful as tv, magazine, radio, etc, advertising.

i tell one friend, he tells 10 friends, each of those 10 tell 10 more....you get the idea.

i've also said this before, but i will say it again, it really isn't of any concern what sony says they can do, doesn't matter what courts decide either, in the court of public opinion this will be decided.

i'm sure the concern after this wont be they removed a "experimental/testing" feature that allowed linux, it will be, what features will they remove next.
I can't argue that, I knew of Linux being installable before it was even released and was very enticed to play around with Yellow Dog when it first came out. The point isn't that they removed a feature, minor, small, or large, they reportedly did so to maintain the online integrity of the device and Sony's intellectual property. Perhaps all functionality could have been lost, perhaps only custom functionality could have been added.
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Snowdevil
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