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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 13

post #121 of 172
Question:

When you guys buy a game for $60, let's say Call of Duty for example, or even pay a monthly fee for a game like World of Warcraft, don't updates occasionally remove features from the game, which you license and DO NOT OWN? I see plenty of people complaining on the developers' forums when things like that happen, but is it illegal? No. Is it wrong? Not really. Will it please many and tease many? Yes.

I'll be waiting on the sidelines when this is all over and Sony is scot-free of all accusations, we'll see what's legal and what's not, or what becomes legal.
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post #122 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Question:

When you guys buy a game for $60, let's say Call of Duty for example, or even pay a monthly fee for a game like World of Warcraft, don't updates occasionally remove features from the game, which you license and DO NOT OWN? I see plenty of people complaining on the developers' forums when things like that happen, but is it illegal? No. Is it wrong? Not really. Will it please many and tease many? Yes.

I'll be waiting on the sidelines when this is all over and Sony is scot-free of all accusations, we'll see what's legal and what's not, or what becomes legal.
please point out some features, cause i believe you are referring when they fix a game glitch or bug, only in windows is a bug a "feature".
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post #123 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
please point out some features, cause i believe you are referring when they fix a game glitch or bug, only in windows is a bug a "feature".
Back in the older days of Second Life, the client had a built in ability to record video. In one of their updates, they removed it. You can't play without an updated client. Back at that time, their client was closed source, so there wasn't any available alternatives. You update and lose that feature, or you don't play. They also had a feature that allowed you to enabled mirrored surfaces for metallic objects. Not many people had the video card to handle that, so they removed it in an update. Those are just a few examples off the top of my head, and I haven't played in years. This could even cause monetary damages to each individual person, considering some people willingly invested money, and some people made money. I could bring in around $600+ usd a month in profit, so I didn't have a choice but to update and lose those features.
Edit:
They also removed a feature that allowed you to directly take the UUID of any selected object's texture due to people stealing textures. It was an extremely convenient way of getting information for other things, because there were legal ways of using that feature. Though, anything in Second Life is automatically protected by the DMCA, and can also have additional copyrights placed on anything of yours. People's textures were being stolen by other people misusing the feature to take texture UUID's, so that particular feature was removed.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
Edited by Zinxe - 2/22/11 at 8:49pm
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post #124 of 172
You're seriously questioning that?

This is a dent among other huge legendary games that lost features and upset millions.

http://www.cataclysmfrontlines.com/c...-been-removed/
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post #125 of 172
Just to point out on that las example, I don't believe it holds ground based on the fact that it has never existed in the ACTUAL game those were features in development that didn't see the light of day. I upsetted some but nothing more.
post #126 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
Off Topic: For those that don't have a clue what a EULA is. An End-User License Agreement is a legal contract between the leaser and leasee (you) so that you may license something. In this case, the PS3 software. A EULA to be a valid EULA must be submitted through the court systems that approves said EULA. If there was anything illegal, it would never be approved as an official EULA. That doesn't mean nothing slips by in the legality department but the fact that people think the EULA doesn't have any merit or cannot be enforced are simply wrong. There is probably a different EULA for every legal region to accommodate national laws. There are US laws that protect both the leaser and leasee from each other AND to handle breaches of said contract.
http://www.lctjournal.washington.edu...11Cormier.html

Oh REALLY? REALLY? I call BS, they aren't law and are not processed through US court. They can be, but that still doesn't mean they uphold federal/state and public policy. Generally they cover federal/state laws, but sometimes can't because there aren't laws that specifically allow them to get away with what the EULA says.

I have to say again, O RLLY?

Oh, and those were recent cases.

[edit] If part of the EULA is valid, as all contracts go, you invalidate the entire contract. Basically it's a way they can cover their ass in case something happens on the fly, but if brought to court and there is a law that says they can't do that there's nothing in that contract that's valid. The entire contract has to be valid, if there is any mistake or mis-interpretation that can be had there is no contract. That's how ALL legal contracts go. And just so you know, a legal contract between two people doesn't mean it's a legal contract that can get you charged with a crime. It just means that the person can take you to court and sue you, or take it to civil court. However that doesn't make it law in any sense of the term.

[edit]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
Back in the older days of Second Life, the client had a built in ability to record video. In one of their updates, they removed it. You can't play without an updated client. Back at that time, their client was closed source, so there wasn't any available alternatives. You update and lose that feature, or you don't play. They also had a feature that allowed you to enabled mirrored surfaces for metallic objects. Not many people had the video card to handle that, so they removed it in an update. Those are just a few examples off the top of my head, and I haven't played in years. This could even cause monetary damages to each individual person, considering some people willingly invested money, and some people made money. I could bring in around $600+ usd a month in profit, so I didn't have a choice but to update and lose those features.
Edit:
They also removed a feature that allowed you to directly take the UUID of any selected object's texture due to people stealing textures. It was an extremely convenient way of getting information for other things, because there were legal ways of using that feature. Though, anything in Second Life is automatically protected by the DMCA, and can also have additional copyrights placed on anything of yours. People's textures were being stolen by other people misusing the feature to take texture UUID's, so that particular feature was removed.
Sounds familiar, doesn't it?
No, doesn't sound familiar. That feature directly allowed for theft without any additional hacks or modifications. You can't create something that allows people to steal and then go "oh, ops". I can't create software, then put in a feater that allows you to steal personal information. I'd be liable and the court would say that feature has to be removed. Now if I made a feature that had protection only to have a hacker take that protection away and steal identities that would be the same situation. if this was a major feature that caused huge loss of functionality then I would be liable for what sony is going through.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/22/11 at 9:15pm
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post #127 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
You're seriously questioning that?

This is a dent among other huge legendary games that lost features and upset millions.

http://www.cataclysmfrontlines.com/c...-been-removed/
um...you are offering features that were in a beta of a game as proof that this can happen? i'm pretty sure this is the defination of what a beta is, to see what is going to work and what isn't going to work...
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post #128 of 172
What does a game (software) that is "licensed" have to do with hardware than one buys?

There is nothing in common. Terrible argument.
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post #129 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
What more can one ask for than "there's a major security issue and we need to remove it" though? I mean, I understand; It would have been nice for Sony to specifically mention that the security hole inevitably will lead to online game cheats, but there's not much more that NEEDS to be said.

Edit: Actually, they sort of did even mention that.



http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/...-v3-21-update/
Well there's the perfect counter-argument. Are consumers not given the right to choose whether they wish to be secure on insecure? You get to choose from what Windows updates you wish to install. Most of them are not coupled, and do not demand that you install one update before you can install another. They basically made it seem that it was a core security flaw that had to be eliminated, regardless of whether you cared or not. That is not a practice I would condone. Also, for the base of users that wanted to keep the feature and did not want to update, Sony was basically condemning them to deal with all the bugs that still existed with that firmware, because you couldn't update the FW to address more relevant issues without removing OtherOS. You may not even want to play on the PSN, but regardless, because you wanted to keep a feature, you were not allowed to further the security and stability of your device through other means. Then, now, let's say, instead of hacking the whole system, people were creating CFW that included fixes that were included with the newest FW update. Would that, then, also be cited as hacking and misuse of software?
post #130 of 172
Thread Starter 
I think it was Sony's responsibility to fix security without removing ANY functionality. If they didn't have the foresight to know they couldn't protect a key functionality, that's their fault and it's up to them, not us, to fix it. At the very least, Sony should have admitted they messed up but they refuse to admit any responsibility to the consumer.

I think this argument is pretty pointless because I really cannot understand the pro-Sony point of view and why people would choose to argue this. I might be just having a brain-freeze or some major mental block but I don't know why people insist that companies be given more rights to treat the consumer at their discretion. There are some people in here arguing about how EULAs should give companies the jurisdiction to do whatever they want with the systems or software that they sell. It boggles my mind not that people argue that this is legal but people seem to think this is in their benefit. These are the same people who advocate the sacrifice of a little bit of privacy for the sake of security because it doesn't affect them. I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said "They that can give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It is up to Sony to deliver security without sacrificing any included features of the platform. If they can't, than they failed in delivering a product to the market that they could secure with the features that they specified on the market. This is not a free market. A free market assumes perfect information on both sides and Sony obviously did not provide the consumer with the knowledge that their implementation of Linux would not be secure. The reasoning that they didn't know is not good enough. That's just laziness on their parts.

I don't understand how Sony can design a system that has failed on so many levels yet the ones who are to blame are the users of the system and Sony should just get off scott-free. If you can't protect the features that you brought to market, then YOU need to fix it without harming ANY consumers or compensate the consumer adequately by admitting that you FAILED and providing compensation for the loss of features that was YOUR fault.
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