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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 14

post #131 of 172
*Waits for people to come in claiming that the compensation was the fixes in updates after the OtherOS removal*

+1 to you.
post #132 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
http://www.lctjournal.washington.edu...11Cormier.html

Oh REALLY? REALLY? I call BS, they aren't law and are not processed through US court. They can be, but that still doesn't mean they uphold federal/state and public policy. [B]Generally they cover federal/state laws, but sometimes can't because there aren't laws that specifically allow them to get away with what the EULA says.
Please make up your mind.

Here is what I think of your essay on Enforcement of Contract:

Quote:
CONCLUSION

Clickwrap agreements are a relatively recent development in contract law, but they have become a legally enforceable staple in modern business. Businesses drafting clickwrap agreements can be secure in forming these new contracts, but they cannot forget the importance of traditional contract concepts as they apply to all agreements. Recent cases invalidating clickwrap agreements did not attack the contracts on their form, but rather on their substance. The fact that the courts invalidated these contracts based on traditional contractual concepts re-emphasizes that clickwrap agreements have become an accepted form of contracting that do not require special analysis. In each of these cases the specific terms were invalidated because the courts found them to be unenforceable on traditional contract grounds. The individual clauses invalidated were either contrary to public policy because they went against state consumer protection clauses (in Washington and California) or because the contract was unconscionable. It is unclear whether these courts were reacting to the substance of the contractual terms solely or whether the form in which the companies secured consumer assent also factored in to their decision.
I have already commented on such events possibly occurring. Just because an EULA is a EULA doesn't make it immune from such laws. Most though go through Country and State laws when drafting and finalizing their terms of service.

Quote:
The court reasoned that the FAA specifically allows state laws to invalidate arbitration clauses if the clauses violate general state contracting principals.
Some laws do exist that prevent for things like dismissal of class action lawsuits or court relocation to Atlanta, Georgia like Earthlink wanted. Nowhere does it state that they won or lost the case, just that they had to go to trial. Earthlink in particular also never gave the consumers an Opt Out.

Quote:
If part of the EULA is valid, as all contracts go, you invalidate the entire contract. Basically it's a way they can cover their ass in case something happens on the fly, but if brought to court and there is a law that says they can't do that there's nothing in that contract that's valid. The entire contract has to be valid, if there is any mistake or mis-interpretation that can be had there is no contract. That's how ALL legal contracts go.
There are varying forms of "Breach of Contract" none of which invalidates an entire contract until a legal authority releases you from it or nullifies it or allows for ratification of said contract by the contractor. All of which is done through a court where the burden of proof is displayed.

Quote:
And just so you know, a legal contract between two people doesn't mean it's a legal contract that can get you charged with a crime. It just means that the person can take you to court and sue you, or take it to civil court. However that doesn't make it law in any sense of the term.
Doesn't really have anything to do with this.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 11:08pm
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post #133 of 172
i've seen it a lot in this thread that it was brought up that sony removed otherOS due to security reasons (piracy, cheats, protection of IP, etc..), but yet sony claims this was optional security update, that you didn't have to upgrade to the latest firmware.

now here is my problem with this, if it was really to protect against piracy and protection of sony's IP, wouldn't it have been mandatory?

and why do people accept whatever companies do as perfectly okay? i don't get that either? don't you all have opinions? aren't you passionate about anything? it just seems eula is end all to all arguments "no argument here, its in the eula, so i will quietly go back to eating my curds and whey." you never question the legality of eula either? never disagreed with one? have you ever read one fully and understood it?

i'm not going to say that eula's are not 100% legally binding, but i'm not going to say they are a 100% infallible either, and that what a company can choose to do with one is legal or what can happen to a individual if they break one, i simply if i don't agree with one, i choose not to use said software or hardware, in the last several years i've made sure i knew what the eula was about before i purchased.
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post #134 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
Please make up your mind.

Here is what I think of your essay on Enforcement of Contract:

I have already commented on such events possibly occurring. Just because an EULA is a EULA doesn't make it immune from such laws. Most though go through Country and State laws when drafting and finalizing their terms of service.

Some laws due to exist that prevent for things like dismissal of class action lawsuits or court relocation to Atlanta, Georgia like Earthlink wanted. Nowhere does it state that they won or lost the case, just that they had to go to trial. Earthlink in particular also never gave the consumers an Opt Out.

There are varying forms of "Breach of Contract" none of which invalidates an entire contract until a legal authority releases you from it or nullifies it or allows for ratification of said contract by the contractor. All of which is done through a court where the burden of proof is displayed.

Doesn't really have anything to do with this.
There is a huge difference between a legal binding contract and a law. First off if a breach of contract is found, you have to state a claim on to how that contract effects the company. If it causes damage to the company you can sue for punitive damages, whatever they may be. However, if a breach of contract happens and it has no damages there is nothing legally that can be done. They can do something like deny you service or terminate service, but that's something they can do anyways. Services have always been on the discretion of the person providing the service, unless it's a payed for service.

What I'm saying is if you break contract the company has to take you to civil court. In which it has to prove you caused some form of damages or libel, something in that nature. There is no EULA, or any contract between two parties that holds up in a way that you get charged by state or federal laws. That's why it's a civil suit. CIVIL, in fact both lawsuits currently are civil.

Services are one thing, you can't use a service in a way the provider doesn't allow. That is completely "illegal", though it's not illegal but it gives them grounds to terminate the service, for you don't own the service. However, when it comes to physical property there is not much they can do to enforce EULA. Once you own it, and it's entirety, you own that property. The problem with property that comes with software on them is that you don't "own" that software. It's a licensed service (depending), so they can hold that in court. However, modification to software as long as it follows DCMA can't be enforced (things like MODS would be illegal, you wouldn't be able to even use a "theme" for windows as some require you to modify windows itself) but that's still a gray erea.

And the entire time I've been saying they usually cover state and federal laws. That's what most EULAs are based from, but it doesn't mean they are the law. Legally binding is not the same thing as a legal contract. That's why it's called legally binding, things have to be worded specifically otherwise it gets ugly.

Trust me I know what an EULA is, and it's not a legal contract it's legally binding. It's no different than if I sold you a book and said you can only use it with said constrictions or I can repo the book back. This becomes problematic because you are legally allowed to modify that book if you own it, it's your book. I can't legally do anything with that EULA. Same goes with a gameboy, ipod, telephone, whatever you want. If I have a licensed service on said device and you modify that service then you could get into trouble. That however is covered by the DCMA already, not by the EULA. They might say it in the EULA but that's not the legal precedence in law, it's the DCMA.

[edit] The reason why I called BS is because they aren't processed through the law. There is no "legal EULA" in any official sense. You may have to get an EULA validated so that it doesn't break constitutional laws, but that doesn't mean that the EULA is 100% valid in court. They don't check that, though the legal team that Sony runs is what makes it up so they probably know their ****. That doesn't mean the US court system approves an EULA to make it "official". There is no federal or state seal of approval, and trust me the feds do like you to know when they back something up.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/23/11 at 12:24am
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post #135 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by transhour View Post
i've seen it a lot in this thread that it was brought up that sony removed otherOS due to security reasons (piracy, cheats, protection of IP, etc..), but yet sony claims this was optional security update, that you didn't have to upgrade to the latest firmware.

now here is my problem with this, if it was really to protect against piracy and protection of sony's IP, wouldn't it have been mandatory?

and why do people accept whatever companies do as perfectly okay? i don't get that either? don't you all have opinions? aren't you passionate about anything? it just seems eula is end all to all arguments "no argument here, its in the eula, so i will quietly go back to eating my curds and whey." you never question the legality of eula either? never disagreed with one? have you ever read one fully and understood it?

i'm not going to say that eula's are not 100% legally binding, but i'm not going to say they are a 100% infallible either, and that what a company can choose to do with one is legal or what can happen to a individual if they break one, i simply if i don't agree with one, i choose not to use said software or hardware, in the last several years i've made sure i knew what the eula was about before i purchased.
Some people argue with their hearts, some people argue with their heads, and some people troll.

Why am I supposed to be enraged by Sony? So far they have had a secure-ish system with very few complaints from me. Now the gates are open and many rules have gone out the window. No fear of repercussions too for many of them.

I lost Linux on my PS3. Whoopy. Its definitely not the end of the world. In exchange I get another 12 months of low piracy and hacking on a PS3. I got the better end of that deal trust me.

I can dual boot Crunchbang on my desktop, my laptop, my phone runs Android, my netbook has CrunchEEE on it. Did I (me, personally) lose anything? Not a thing.

Okay so they chopped off a feature that I did not need, BUT they could chop of blu-ray playback next! They could. They could also come to my house and gang rape my cat. I am not getting upset with what they could do.

I filed a complaint with the BBB, State Attorney General of Florida, and Valve Corp, when I got rear-ended on a STEAM transaction. I lost, because the ToS states there are no refunds partial or full. I purchased 3x 60$ titles, and 12 hours later, 2 of them were on sale for 24.99 and 34.99. I wanted a partial refund. Learned quite a bit about what I can and can't do, and what they can and can't do.

Oh well, I can't stay mad forever, and I am still using STEAM to this day.

There is way more important stuff to get worried or hot and bothered over in this world.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 11:19pm
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post #136 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I filed a complaint with the BBB, State Attorney General of Florida, and Valve Corp, when I got rear-ended on a STEAM transaction. I lost, because the ToS states there are no refunds partial or full. I purchased 3x 60$ titles, and 12 hours later, 2 of them were on sale for 24.99 and 34.99. I wanted a partial refund. Learned quite a bit about what I can and can't do, and what they can and can't do.
That's actually a simple case. All sales are final, there are no legal refunds or policies that state you have to get a refund if the product isn't up to your standards. False advertisement and other such claims apply but if the product does as said there is nothing a company owes you. That's business 101, no refunds.
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post #137 of 172
I don't see how speaking for yourself provides us with adequate evidence to assuage concern.
post #138 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
That's actually a simple case. All sales are final, there are no legal refunds or policies that state you have to get a refund if the product isn't up to your standards. False advertisement and other such claims apply but if the product does as said there is nothing a company owes you. That's business 101, no refunds.
I was going with the whole price change within such a short period of time. I was trying to use the discrimination of pricing from the Clayton Act. I just didn't feel like pushing the issue that hard.

First-Sale Doctrine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ikrin View Post
I don't see how speaking for yourself provides us with adequate evidence to assuage concern.
I don't presume to know what or why others think and say what they do. There are only 2 or 3 that don't necessarily think Sony will lose. They can respond if they want.
Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 11:18pm
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post #139 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post
I was going with the whole, price change within the period of time trying to use discrimination of pricing from the Clayton Act. I just didn't feel like pushing the issue that hard.

First-Sale Doctrine.



I don't presume to know what or why others think and say what they do. There are only 2 or 3 that don't necessarily think Sony will lose. They can respond if they want.
That act isn't ment to give you your money back if you made a sale outside of a price decline. It was made to keep competitive pricing done so that a monopoly, or large corporation can't just drop pricing so that people would buy their product. If you buy something and then find out it was on sale on a later date, even by hours, there is nothing you can do.

It's one of the first things you learn if you go into services of any kind, the customer cannot do that. Some places consider it courtesy to do that and will, as to get return service. I worked at a grocery store for 2 years, you won't believe how many people try and get that. I also know people in the cable company, you can't "technically" get the new deals, no matter when you got your current payments set up. However I've been told that if you harass them enough you can get away with it, they would rather not lose a customer.

[edit] More or less, once you transfer payment of any sort the sale is final. There's not many circumstances you get any legal refunds. In fact, unless you can prove that you got something broken (such as order a hard drive from newegg and it's DOA) they have no legal obligations to refund you. All refunds (90 day refund, ect...) are done as a service by the company without legal obligation. Same goes with customer service, insurance, all of that. All they are legally obligated to do is give you what you payed for.

[edit2] I left out that you get refunds due to fraud, but assuming the product works as advertised there is no legal obligation. You buy it, you keep it.
Edited by mushroomboy - 2/22/11 at 11:40pm
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post #140 of 172
Sony really needs to lose this case. It is BS to remove advertised functionality, no matter how many people actually used it.
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