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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 15

post #141 of 172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingCain View Post

I lost Linux on my PS3. Whoopy. Its definitely not the end of the world. In exchange I get another 12 months of low piracy and hacking on a PS3. I got the better end of that deal trust me.
Why should you have to choose? When you purchased the PS3, you had reasonable expectation of Linux and low piracy and hacking. Now, you only have one. How did you get the better end of a deal? If anything, you're the same or worse off if you even valued Linux at a value of one penny. There's no logical way you can end up better off when you have less stuff than what you started of with.

My problem is that Sony made you choose between the two when it's their responsibility to provide both. I don't know why people accept OtherOS can't be implemented with restrictions against piracy or hacking just because Sony said so. In light of the fatally stupid security mistakes that have come out, it seems much more likely that Sony is just incredibly lazy on the part of actually trying to figure out how to make Linux/OtherOS secure.

The point I'm trying to make is that it's completely bull**** for Sony to present either security or Linux/OtherOS as mutually exclusive choices. Is Sony saying that it's technologically impossible to have a secure platform with Linux/OtherOS? If it's so absolutely impossible, it seems pretty retarded for Sony to have included it in the first place. I guess when you're trying to sell a $600 console, you don't worry about that stuff and it's easier just to advertise your console as a superior piece of hardware that "only does everything."

In my opinion, Sony has handled this issue in a completely short-sided manner. Linux gets comprised? Let's just remove this feature instead of trying to actually secure the console itself. Geohotz releases the keys? Let's sue him instead of actually working to fix the security issue of the PS3 itself. The fact that the recent hack revealed the idiocy of the PS3 and PSN security should be enlightening of how little effort Sony puts into actually securing the console. Unencrypted credit card information? Non-random security guys? It's clear Sony put the minimal effort in order to make as much profit as possible. In fact, I fee like part of Sony's overreaction to the PS3 hack has been a result of the fact that they knew it would reveal the piss-poor effort they had put into PS3 security.

You guys really think Sony exhausted all other possible options before removing Linux and OtherOS? You think they put in research and development into how they could save that functionality and secure the console. I highly doubt they would have put any such effort if it would have hurt their bottom line. Corporations will favor profit over consumer interests 99 out of 100 times. This would be fine if we lived in a true free market economy where we knew everything Sony was doing but we don't have the kind of perfect information that Adam Smith's ideal free market requires. Instead, we have a situation of extremely asymmetrical information on the part of the consumer and the corporation and thus the need for protection of consumer interest.

I don't see any reason why Sony should be let off the hook unless they somehow prove that Linux is fundamentally incompatible with a secure gaming console. Even then, they should have some culpability for being stupid and greedy enough to promise this in the first place if it's that fundamentally impossible. No matter which way slice it, Sony screwed up but it's the consumers who paid for their security and technological failures. That just doesn't sit right with me.
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post #142 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos89 View Post
Why should you have to choose? When you purchased the PS3, you had reasonable expectation of Linux and low piracy and hacking. Now, you only have one. How did you get the better end of a deal? If anything, you're the same or worse off if you even valued Linux at a value of one penny. There's no logical way you can end up better off when you have less stuff than what you started of with.

My problem is that Sony made you choose between the two when it's their responsibility to provide both.
I stopped reading at that point. It isn't Sony's responsibility to provide a free service to you. They don't have to provide anything if they don't want to, you agreed to those terms. Your personal opinion does not matter.
Why should you have to choose? It costs resources to maintain security updates. It gets to the point where you must cut off the dead ends and move on. OtherOS was exploited, presumably over and over again, to where it was within the best interest of the company, product, and consumers to just remove it all together.
So, Why should we have to choose between OtherOS and PSN? Why should the hackers exploiting a system and damaging legitimate players be catered to? It is ridiculous.
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post #143 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
I stopped reading at that point. It isn't Sony's responsibility to provide a free service to you. They don't have to provide anything if they don't want to, you agreed to those terms. Your personal opinion does not matter.
Why should you have to choose? It costs resources to maintain security updates. It gets to the point where you must cut off the dead ends and move on. OtherOS was exploited, presumably over and over again, to where it was within the best interest of the company, product, and consumers to just remove it all together.
So, Why should we have to choose between OtherOS and PSN? Why should the hackers exploiting a system and damaging legitimate players be catered to? It is ridiculous.
Its not free. When you purchased a PS3, you purchased the ability(if you bought a old ps3 fat) to install otherOS, to play Blu-ray's, to play ps3 games, to be able to access wireless signals and the ability to access psn. if sony was to remove psn, or blu-ray playback, they would have a huge class-action lawsuit...just like the one going on against sony for otherOS. Its not personal opinion, its fact. You purchased a ps3 with those features, for the reasonable life of the product it HAS to maintain those features. Sony isnt even considering the ps4, so the reasonable life of the product is still in effect. It really has nothing to do with hacking, if OtherOS had the ability to hack the ps3 easily, they would have never made the update "optional" like all of you claim.
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post #144 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Destroyer View Post
Its not free. When you purchased a PS3, you purchased the ability(if you bought a old ps3 fat) to install otherOS, to play Blu-ray's, to play ps3 games, to be able to access wireless signals and the ability to access psn. if sony was to remove psn, or blu-ray playback, they would have a huge class-action lawsuit...just like the one going on against sony for otherOS. Its not personal opinion, its fact. You purchased a ps3 with those features, for the reasonable life of the product it HAS to maintain those features. Sony isnt even considering the ps4, so the reasonable life of the product is still in effect. It really has nothing to do with hacking, if OtherOS had the ability to hack the ps3 easily, they would have never made the update "optional" like all of you claim.
They can remove PSN but then by law they would have to offer at least a pay for service. At least until the lifespan of the console. So they can remove PSN, but if they release games (and offer continued support in these games) that require PSN for function (Final Fantasy ect...) then they have to require some form of PSN. So essentially it's free, but it's a service they have to require by supporting games that are MP only. You can't legally support a game that's MP and say you don't support MP, that's false advertising in a sense. I mean your partly right, but it's just in a different light.

[edit] That also goes to the MAG argument, where they can "drop" support. You can't put your seal of cert on a game and say we fully support this game but we don't support MP. You can't play MP because we dropped PSN, but you can play the game. That seems obvious, they are advertising full support (through the commercial seal of approval) but then backing out saying they don't support it's main feature. YOU CANT DO THAT
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post #145 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by IcedEarth View Post
I'm in agreeance, but laws also have loop holes.
i like loop holes i can get away with so many things with loop holes
    
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post #146 of 172
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Originally Posted by mushroomboy View Post
THATS WHAT IV SAID THE WHOLE TIME!!! I said that in both threads. This could set precedent for the entire modding community. From hacking firmware to modding your MS desktop. When you "buy" a console, an ipod, mp3 player, DVD player, DVDrom, Motherboard, Video card, Audio card, CPU (soon to have FW, I can see it in the future ), you are purchasing hardware with a "firmware" on it that you currently (depending on the case) can modify. If sony wins you may lose all those rights. That motherboard hack you used to get your ram/cpu support through a bios hack? Illegal, get new parts or risk being sued. That video card you bios flashed after modifying the bios (firmware)? Illegal, can't do. MP3 player you modded to play different WMA format? Roxbox is a firmware by standard: http://www.rockbox.org/ FIRMWARE, ILLEGAL. That DVD player that you hacked to get proper region support because all of your US DVDs ([edit] depends on region)? ILLEGAL. THATS what's going on here folks, the big picture. I swear you don't read, you just think "oh geo's an evil twirp that should burn". sa;ldjfalfjsdalj ARRR
That's what I posted in the other thread, that's a possible outcome of losing this case. For all of you hardcore OC fans you could lose OC potential. ***, how can you be against that and on a site like this?
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post #147 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Destroyer View Post
if OtherOS had the ability to hack the ps3 easily, they would have never made the update "optional" like all of you claim.
Incorrect. How would it be any other way? Sony can't "force feed" the update to your PS3 unless you gave consent like Omega mentioned with the auto-update option. Thousands, possibly millions out of the 50+ million PS3s out there aren't even connected to the internet. Sony has to notify you of any and all changes to the license agreement, which is typically updated with each firmware update. What WOULD be illegal is if they didn't give you the option to decline the new agreement and shot the update to your PS3 without any written notification. That's why the whole case is shifted in Sony's favor. They announced the update and that it would remove OtherOS 4 days before the update was released. You CONSENTED to downloading the update, and by accepting the download, you agreed to the new changes the update made which state that OtherOS is no longer a feature. At this point the only decision the courts have to make is whether Sony did their job to communicate the changes that were in the update and gave their customers the option of declining the update. Once it's established that they did, Sony will walk away untouched. Right or wrong doesn't matter here. End of discussion. It's law. The EULA is within the extent of the law and will hold strong. You can't just go clickety click agreeing to every EULA you see. I recall one company stating in their EULA that the first person to fully read the EULA will receive a $1,000 reward or something like that in the last lines of the EULA, and no one claimed the prize for 4 months.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/23/11 at 9:08am
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post #148 of 172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
At this point the only decision the courts have to make is whether Sony did their job to communicate the changes that were in the update and gave their customers the option of declining the update. Once it's established that they did, Sony will walk away untouched. Right or wrong doesn't matter here. End of discussion. It's law. The EULA is within the extent of the law and will hold strong. You can't just go clickety click agreeing to every EULA you see. I recall one company stating in their EULA that the first person to fully read the EULA will receive a $1,000 reward or something like that in the last lines of the EULA, and no one claimed the prize for 4 months.
Oh, did they also communicate we wouldn't be able to play new games if we didn't update the firmware?
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post #149 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Incorrect. How would it be any other way? Sony can't "force feed" the update to your PS3 unless you gave consent like Omega mentioned with the auto-update option. Thousands, possibly millions out of the 50+ million PS3s out there aren't even connected to the internet. Sony has to notify you of any and all changes to the license agreement, which is typically updated with each firmware update. What WOULD be illegal is if they didn't give you the option to decline the new agreement and shot the update to your PS3 without any written notification. That's why the whole case is shifted in Sony's favor. They announced the update and that it would remove OtherOS 4 days before the update was released. You CONSENTED to downloading the update, and by accepting the download, you agreed to the new changes the update made which state that OtherOS is no longer a feature. At this point the only decision the courts have to make is whether Sony did their job to communicate the changes that were in the update and gave their customers the option of declining the update. Once it's established that they did, Sony will walk away untouched. Right or wrong doesn't matter here. End of discussion. It's law. The EULA is within the extent of the law and will hold strong. You can't just go clickety click agreeing to every EULA you see. I recall one company stating in their EULA that the first person to fully read the EULA will receive a $1,000 reward or something like that in the last lines of the EULA, and no one claimed the prize for 4 months.
Yeah but the clause that the case is based off of doesn't have anything to do with the company randomly updating. It's about the company putting the consumer in a position where they have to choose between major functions of the software. Either choice cripples the software, causing the consumer anguish because they payed for these features/functions. What you just gave us is a different example. That is illegal but on different grounds, as a company can't force software on you since they don't own the physical device (that holds no matter what). If sony did that this would be an open and close case, they would lose and wouldn't bother dragging this out so long. This isn't the case, and so it's going to go on for a while.
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post #150 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by bravos89 View Post
Oh, did they also communicate we wouldn't be able to play new games if we didn't update the firmware?
Yessir, each and every game that requires newer firmware or PSN access notes such requirements on its retail box. If your PS3 is not capable of accessing PSN due to outdated firmware, that neat little disclaimer holds Sony totally free of liability.

@ mushroomboy, OtherOS is by no means a "major function" (correct term is primary function) of the PS3. That will be up to the courts to decide. If it was never advertised as its main function, it isn't. It's hard to give an example of another product that has worked this way but I'm pretty confident the PS3 isn't the first. Primary functions of the PS3 include Blu-Ray capability, the ability to play PS3 games, the ability to output through HDMI video/audio, and output through optical audio. Pretty sure that's about all the primary functions of the PS3. PSN is a free service that may be terminated at any time just like any MMO service (All Points Bulletin, Hellgate London) is shut off.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/23/11 at 9:33am
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