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[ArsTechnica] "OtherOS" class-action lawsuit: GeoHot, Sony now share same charge - Page 5

post #41 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by BravoV3 View Post
Only problem with that is, if you want Netflix at all you'd need to have updated your console via firmware. Netflix came well after OtherOs was removed.
i do believe you are incorrect, netflix came available on the ps3 in late 2009, otheros was removed mid-2010...
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post #42 of 172
I hope Sony gets trounced on this. I have toyed with other OS and thought it was a nifty feature. Then they removed it and said I couldn't use my equiptment as promised unless I updated the firmware and removed the other OS. Sounds like shady business practice to me.

Should have just stuck to the 360. At least with MS they seem to add features versus removing them.
    
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post #43 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by linkin93 View Post
So, because the CPU inside the unit isn't advertised they have the right to take it away at any time? Okay, flawed example because removing the CPU would make the whole unit stop functioning, but removing the OtherOS feature strips all usability for many users.
Wow, this is what you pulled out as your ace?

Either you're just making yourself look stupid intentionally or you really are.

Your comparison is worse than mine when it's 03:00 in the middle of the night...

I raged.
Edited by Ecchi-BANZAII!!! - 2/22/11 at 2:44am
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post #44 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ecchi-BANZAII!!! View Post
Wow, this is what you pulled out as your ace?

Either you're just making yourself look stupid intentionally or you really are.

Your comparison is worse than mine when it's 03:00 in the middle of the night...
You are dead wrong. It's not even 3:00 AM yet!

This lawsuit does have merit to it, as is the case any time something similar happens (IE: forced to stop doing thing "A" to continue thing "B" -- happens a lot in business). I think this will be left primarily up to the judge, but it's also going to depend a great deal on the exact wording Sony used in their various terms/licenses.
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post #45 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
The whole "was OtherOS advertised?" debate is at this point totally tossed aside. EVEN IF IT WAS advertised (it wasn't. I've gone over this two or three times already and won't go over it any further here) every PSN user agreed to the terms of agreement that Sony may at any time remove any feature from your system via updates. The PS3 came with OtherOS, it lived up its promise to ANY advertisement mentioning OtherOS at all, which again, there were none. That's 1 notice. In addition to that, Sony announced the update 3 or 4 days before it actually released, and clearly stated that OtherOS would be removed. The blog post received 4,000 comments in 3 days; surely, that's indication that the communication did its job of communicating to plenty of its audience. That's 2 notices. ON TOP OF those two facts, Sony GAVE everyone one last opportunity to decline the update. That's 3 chances to back out of agreeing to the PS3's terms of use. Sony did not force the update onto anyone's PS3. Don't agree to the new terms? Cool, keep your OtherOS, but you can't use PSN until you agree to its new terms.
It really depends on what "advertised" really suggests. Regardless of whether it was explicitly marketed, it was an intentionally included feature. There's a difference between an update and and a removal. However Sony skewed the point of "misuse" of the OtherOS feature, claiming that it was a possible threat to the integrity of the console's security, it was still this act that ignited the fervor in "hackers" and instilled a sense of distrust within the general community. 4,000 comments is not a very large sample population of the possible owners. It also doesn't account for the uniqueness of the users posting. As I view it, forcing an audience to not use an included feature in order to be able to utilize an online service doesn't align well with any type of terms, and the two are non-sequitur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by =Stealth Pyros View Post
I don't really understand your second sentence. You're saying that someone who produces a product SHOULDN'T be the ones to outline what that product does or includes? That's... pretty far-fetched. Who IS supposed to then? You're saying that every product should undergo some sort of government assessment that outlines each single feature and component of a product? Say goodbye to affordable hardware if so. And... I don't get it. Even if such a system were in place, Sony still has the right to remove any feature.
Sure, they can outline what it "does" do, but they certainly shouldn't be able to outline what it "can/will" do. It's like selling someone an SSD and telling them they must agree to not store any pictures of dogs on it, or else the storage capacity will be locked upon updating to the newest firmware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinxe View Post
This ^

Not to mention, you weren't removed of your ability to play any games, unless it was just an online game such as MAG. So, you wouldn't lose any "core" feature by not updating. This is ridiculous, I'd be totally surprised if Sony loses this. If they do, which is highly doubtful, I won't bother ever upholding to what ever I agreed to anymore, because it obviously wouldn't matter in court.
I'm pretty sure that PSN is a rather big selling point for PS3s, especially for those that don't want to pay a subscription to be able to access online content.
post #46 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrjminer View Post
You are dead wrong. It's not even 3:00 AM yet!

This lawsuit does have merit to it, as is the case any time something similar happens (IE: forced to stop doing thing "A" to continue thing "B" -- happens a lot in business). I think this will be left primarily up to the judge, but it's also going to depend a great deal on the exact wording Sony used in their various terms/licenses.
Different time zones mate
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post #47 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
The whole "was OtherOS advertised?" debate is at this point totally tossed aside. EVEN IF IT WAS advertised (it wasn't. I've gone over this two or three times already and won't go over it any further here) every PSN user agreed to the terms of agreement that Sony may at any time remove any feature from your system via updates. The PS3 came with OtherOS, it lived up its promise to ANY advertisement mentioning OtherOS at all, which again, there were none. That's 1 notice. In addition to that, Sony announced the update 3 or 4 days before it actually released, and clearly stated that OtherOS would be removed. The blog post received 4,000 comments in 3 days; surely, that's indication that the communication did its job of communicating to plenty of its audience. That's 2 notices. ON TOP OF those two facts, Sony GAVE everyone one last opportunity to decline the update. That's 3 chances to back out of agreeing to the PS3's terms of use. Sony did not force the update onto anyone's PS3. Don't agree to the new terms? Cool, keep your OtherOS, but you can't use PSN until you agree to its new terms.

I don't really understand your second sentence. You're saying that someone who produces a product SHOULDN'T be the ones to outline what that product does or includes? That's... pretty far-fetched. Who IS supposed to then? You're saying that every product should undergo some sort of government assessment that outlines each single feature and component of a product? Say goodbye to affordable hardware if so. And... I don't get it. Even if such a system were in place, Sony still has the right to remove any feature.
It WAS an advertised feature. As was folding@home. Sony don't have the right to cancel the feature. Simple as that. I'd love to know how you proved this wrong.
    
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post #48 of 172
This is ridiculous.

Don't you guys remember when Microsoft shut down the LIVE servers for all of the original Xbox games? I don't know about you but I bought my 360 so I could play my favorite game - Halo 2. But on April 15th, 2010, was the last day I could. (By the way, they let everyone know like a couple months before hand.)

So now, am I going to sue Microsoft for something which was well within their rights to do? No, we accept it and move on. We obviously don't like it, but it is ultimately not up to us to decide.
post #49 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
It WAS an advertised feature. As was folding@home. Sony don't have the right to cancel the feature. Simple as that. I'd love to know how you proved this wrong.
Ok:

Show me an ad.

If you do find one, which you won't, then read this:

Quote:
11. MAINTENANCE

From time to time, it may become necessary for SCEH to provide certain content or services to you to ensure that PSN, your PlayStation®3 computer system, PSP® system and/or other hardware devices authorized by SCE companies are functioning properly in accordance with SCEH guidelines. Some content or services may be provided automatically without notice when you sign into PSN. Without limitation, such content or services may include automatic updates or upgrades which may change your current operating system, cause a loss of data or content or cause a loss of functionalities or utilities.
http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/p..._tosua_en.html

You agree to THAT when you create your PSN account. When the update that removed OtherOS was released on April 1st, you were not forced to download and apply it. You had the option of declining the update.

In other words, the PS3 came with OtherOS. If OtherOS was advertised, the PS3 met its advertised promise, and Sony reserved the right to remove it any time later. They could have removed it days after launch, ESPECIALLY if they give you the option to decline the update.
Edited by Stealth Pyros - 2/22/11 at 6:06am
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post #50 of 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Pyros View Post
Ok:

Show me an ad.

If you do find one, which you won't, then read this:



http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/p..._tosua_en.html

You agree to THAT when you create your PSN account. When the update that removed OtherOS was released on April 1st, you were not forced to download and apply it. You had the option of declining the update.

In other words, the PS3 came with OtherOS. If OtherOS was advertised, the PS3 met its advertised promise, and Sony reserved the right to remove it any time later. They could have removed it days after launch, ESPECIALLY if they give you the option to decline the update.
Here is the US one.

Many of the confused users should actually read this:
http://legaldoc.dl.playstation.net/p..._tosua_en.html

Quote:
12. MAINTENANCE AND UPGRADES

Some content may be provided automatically without notice when you sign in. Such content may include automatic updates or upgrades which may change your current operating system, cause a loss of data or content or cause a loss of functionalities or utilities
Quote:
7. GENERAL LICENSE RESTRICTIONS AND TERMS

Except as stated in this Agreement, all content and software provided through Sony Online Services are licensed non-exclusively and revocably to you, your children and children for whom you are a legal guardian...
These ToS are no different than STEAM, Windows Vista 64 & Windows 7 64, and Blizzard's World of Warcraft.

Here from the latest EULA from Blizzard:

Quote:
8. Updates - A. Agreements

Blizzard may change, modify, suspend, or discontinue any aspect of the Service at any time. Blizzard may also impose limits on certain features or restrict your access to parts or all of the Service without notice or liability.

Edited by RagingCain - 2/22/11 at 6:30am
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